Vamp the Necros?

[Darkson]

We're not using the cards, but that was down to me confusing the other coaches when I let them decide what rules/inducements they were going to use. They ruleed out stars (yay!) and mercs (yay!), but then ruled out the cards (boo!).

Had a couple of games last night, and was talking about stuff, and the cards came up, and I was explainig that they're designed to use off a normal deck, and both my mates said if they'd known that when they were doing the league rules, they'd have taken them - they thought they'd have to print out and cut up a few sets from the LRB.

Next season I make them read the bloody rulebook first!


(Oh. and they've forbidden me from sacking my secret weapon gobbos, as they're "hilarious" - gits!)

[Marlow]

(Oh. and they've forbidden me from sacking my secret weapon gobbos, as they're "hilarious" - gits!)

Well they are hilarious!
I love watching my fanatic step between the opposing players every turn.

[Dark Lord (retired)]

Of course there are exceptions but the vast majority of posters in this forums and others are concerned with tournaments, rules balance, and coaching a winning team.

They want a competitive board game. That's not to say they don't have fun, but the source of the fun is different. People say all the time, that it's not fun to play a game they don't have a chance of winning. That means the fun is coming from a competition source and not laughing at the random craziness Blood Bowl 3rd edition can bring.

Its a very valid point - but I think it says more about the people who post on TBB than BB players in general.

LRB5 had some attempts to reintroduce some of the fun elements (more secret weapons, access to cards). I hope we can keep pushing for this aspect to increase.

"Fun" elements that have been tweaked redone and homogenized for balance.
Just because you make a mini with a chainsaw doesn't mean you have brought back the wacky results of chainsaws.

It's different because suddenly chainsaws and secret weapons are there for balance, and for leveling playing fields etc.

The point of them is not cHoAtIc DeStRuCtIoN!!! but rather balanced and level fair play. Not the same thing, sorry. If you don't get it then I don't know what to say besides I'm sorry you never experienced that side of Blood Bowl.

[DoubleSkulls]

I'm agreeing with you. There has been some, weak, movement towards reintroducing the wackiness of earlier editions that got ripped out in LRB1-4.

Maybe the best way forward would be to split off the "balance" driven section of the rules. Have a dozen tier 1 teams all designed for balance and a core set of rules to support that.

Then have 'expansion' rules that add levels of wackiness without worrying about balance.

That isn't a way GW (or JJ) want to go

[Jural]

LRB5 had some attempts to reintroduce some of the fun elements (more secret weapons, access to cards). I hope we can keep pushing for this aspect to increase.

The "zany fun" comes at a decreased chance of winning. And it's mainly available to joke teams or big underdogs. Oh, and generally a team is better off ignoring cards and buying stars, mercs, Bloodweiser Babes, etc.

And yes, overdogs can buy all of these things, but it;s once again at a decreased chance of winning, as it gives the opponent more inducements, and stops you from buying extra players or resources which generally contribute to winning.

Look, the LRB 5.0 is a HUGE step in the right direction for fun. But I think the fun is not a wise move overall for players who like to win. Ideally, the fun would be available to all, and give a better chance of winning than playing it safe. The real problems can be summed up in two statements:

1) Players want to win

2) Playing it safe (block, guard, dodge, stars, wizards) is the best way to win.

As long as the above is true with the rules, the game will drift that direction. Why? Ultra-competitive coaches have fun playing other ultra-competitive coaches. And ultra competitive coaches have fun steamrolling players who play for "zany madcap fun". But players who play primarily for zany madcap fun eventually get worn down by players who are ultra-competitive, turning them into former players who wonder what happened.

And it can only happen in a game system that supports it.

[Snew]

But players who play primarily for ... fun eventually get worn down by players who are ultra-competitive, turning them into former players who wonder what happened.

And it can only happen in a game system that supports it.

true.

[Dark Lord (retired)]

Yeah it is true.

IMO the best way to proceed would be one of two paths:

1. Create a new version of the game. Do what they said PBBL was going to do. Take Blood Bowl down to the frame work. That means, keeping the pitch the dice, the attributes (maybe adding or splitting them) and skills.

Rework everything else so that a starting Chaos team has the same intrinsic value as a starting Goblin team in a quantifiable way. No we don't have that now because player cost (value) is subjective at best (my word would be "arbitrary".) Form a core set of rules here that covers the basics for playing one off games. Then develop a system for team growth that isn't an action-reward system. It can be done. Other games do it. Steal from them if need be.


2. The other option is to explain in the rulebook that competitive play should be done in the way tournaments do it (Every team gets X number of skills per round) and that Star Player Point development is going to lead to unbalanced leagues and beer & pretzel play.



Just my opinion. I know that it will never mean anything to anyone in charge of Blood Bowl...but there it is.

[GalakStarscraper]

And yes, overdogs can buy all of these things, but it;s once again at a decreased chance of winning, as it gives the opponent more inducements, and stops you from buying extra players or resources which generally contribute to winning.

There is a rule in the LRB 5.0 that I highly recommend leagues to try ... we use it in my league.

One of the options is that special play cards not be inducements but instead each team be given a set amount of gold each game that can be used only to purchase special play cards and nothing else (and any unspent money is lost). My league gives every team 100k for this at the beginning of each game to buy special play cards. (this rule is an option in the LRB 5.0). My league has loved it and when I questioned about removing this rules I had 90% of the league vote to keep the rules in.

Just a suggestion to help if you find the game needing more randomness. There are some very game wackiness effects in the 100k and less (Eclipse and Ball Clone are in there for example).

Also ... I do disagree with Dark Lord about that chainsaws are no longer about mass destruction but balance. I'd have to say that in my opinion an LRB 5.0 chainsaw is a LOT more about descruction than the 3rd editions ones were (even if you include the Compendium #1 stars). I'll pretty bet pretty well on that an LRB 5.0 chainsaw player causes much more carnage than an chainsaw from the official rules for 3rd edition or LRBs 1 through 4.

In fact .... I'd need to check ... but I think/believe that ALL 6 of the secret weapons are BETTER now than they were in 3rd edition. So while I'm 100% behind DL's comments on the players discussing BB's attitudes these days. I think he's all wet across the board on the carnage and mayhem of the current weapons players.

Galak

[GalakStarscraper]

That isn't a way GW (or JJ) want to go

I was going to say ... I think the odds of this type of add-on are pretty much nil.

Galak

[Jural]

And yes, overdogs can buy all of these things, but it;s once again at a decreased chance of winning, as it gives the opponent more inducements, and stops you from buying extra players or resources which generally contribute to winning.

There is a rule in the LRB 5.0 that I highly recommend leagues to try ... we use it in my league.

One of the options is that special play cards not be inducements but instead each team be given a set amount of gold each game that can be used only to purchase special play cards and nothing else (and any unspent money is lost).

The OBBL that I play gives free 50K cards to all teams. It is fun sometimes, almost never game breaking, and often has no effect. I was against this rule at first, by the way... I thought the 50K cards were too random and could really alter the outcome if the wrong combo appeared. but the cards are well enougn designed.

If I have even a small complaint, it's that the cards themselves are too often useless. I think about 50% of the games I've played one of the coaches has not even used his card, and it may be more. Quite a few games neither coach uses one!

That's why I like the 100k idea. The 100k cards will almost always be used, and the odds are pretty low that you wouldn't get a useable card out of two 50K selections.

Thanks for the tip Galak.

[Dark Lord (retired)]

Also ... I do disagree with Dark Lord about that chainsaws are no longer about mass destruction but balance. I'd have to say that in my opinion an LRB 5.0 chainsaw is a LOT more about descruction than the 3rd editions ones were (even if you include the Compendium #1 stars). I'll pretty bet pretty well on that an LRB 5.0 chainsaw player causes much more carnage than an chainsaw from the official rules for 3rd edition or LRBs 1 through 4.

In fact .... I'd need to check ... but I think/believe that ALL 6 of the secret weapons are BETTER now than they were in 3rd edition. So while I'm 100% behind DL's comments on the players discussing BB's attitudes these days. I think he's all wet across the board on the carnage and mayhem of the current weapons players.

Galak

You misunderstand. You say it yourself. They are "better" as in more reliable. They are also (from looking around) much more common as inducements.

They are reliable ways to level the playing field. Not silly things you add to your team because it's hillarious when a ball & chain player wipes out your 3 skill ogre.

Like I said, it's all tied to this teetering system of giving the players some illusion of balance.

And as far as "carnage"...just because you seem to think there is more blood in the game now (highly debatable) doesn't mean there is more chaos and random wackiness. Lots of that has been stripped under the guise of "too many dice rolls" "streamlining the rules so it takes under 90 minutes" "too confusing" and replaced with punching a calculator to figure team value and inducements.

Fun for statisticians. Not for right brained artist types with mohawks.

What was fun for us was running down elves with SPP gaining Deathrollers. Yeah that's right getting SPP for killing off of a foul with a Deathroller and then collecting a bounty too!
1 player in 100 gets 4 skills and those rare few die within 2 games!! MWA HA HA HA!!!! Spilling beer on the board because you're laughing at your own bomber who just blew himself up along with your mutated ogre with two heads and two magic helmets!! WAAAAGGG!!! Trolls flinging goblins with pojnted helmets at minotaurs with chainsaws!!

That's Blood Bowl.

Blood Bowl now is all about calculations and balance and team values and 33% chance of winning, and perpetual testing and feedback.

Random, meaningless & completely unfair dice rolls that stick it right up your ass at the worst possible time make too many people cry, so they got axed. Need to sell minis to whiney babies, ya know.

Blood Bowl shouldn't be fair, or balanced. It should be mean, nasty and completely hilarious in its unfairness.

[Marlow]

I think one of the things is that players are all the same within a race.

Throwers have Pass, Catchers have Catch, etc.
If starting players had more of a variety of skill choices it would allow teams to develop in different ways for exampe

Human team
Thrower - Two Skills from Pass, Accuracy, Sure Hand, Safe Throw
Catcher - Two Skills from Dodge, Catch, Sprint, Sure Feet
Blocker - Block

That would mean that two starting teams would look different and coaches would get the chance to try out more skills.

[stormmaster1]

I think one of the things is that players are all the same within a race.

Throwers have Pass, Catchers have Catch, etc.
If starting players had more of a variety of skill choices it would allow teams to develop in different ways for exampe

Human team
Thrower - Two Skills from Pass, Accuracy, Sure Hand, Safe Throw
Catcher - Two Skills from Dodge, Catch, Sprint, Sure Feet
Blocker - Block

That would mean that two starting teams would look different and coaches would get the chance to try out more skills.

That sounds fun. a little broke maybe but fun. it would even out i'm sure after a bit of development, but could tip balance at TV100. A great idea for an all-human league.

[Joemanji]

Blood Bowl now is all about calculations and balance and team values and 33% chance of winning, and perpetual testing and feedback.

Random, meaningless & completely unfair dice rolls that stick it right up your ass at the worst possible time make too many people cry, so they got axed. Need to sell minis to whiney babies, ya know.

Blood Bowl shouldn't be fair, or balanced. It should be mean, nasty and completely hilarious in its unfairness.

It should (and can) be both.

Look at the MBBL leagues. 1 straight, 2 horribly unbalanced (it is won every year by the coach who best finds and abuses a combo).

No need to rude though, is there Eric? People are allowed to enjoy the game for whatever reasons they want, and they doesn't make them worse as people (and that is what you are implying here, whatever you retort).

Joe

[GalakStarscraper]

Look at the MBBL leagues. 1 straight, 2 horribly unbalanced (it is won every year by the coach who best finds and abuses a combo).

So PH did do the MBBL3 ... where is it (website)?

Galak