Vamp the Necros?

[plasmoid]

I Think he meant:
>Look at the MBBL leagues. [MBBL]1 straight, [MBBL]2 horribly unbalanced.
I don't think there was ever a MBBL3.
Cheers
Martin

[GalakStarscraper]

I Think he meant:
>Look at the MBBL leagues. [MBBL]1 straight, [MBBL]2 horribly unbalanced.
I don't think there was ever a MBBL3.
Cheers
Martin

ahhh ... that helps Yeah the MBBL2 is my just for fun version of BB like DL wants, but even I don't think that should be the basis for BB (but I think its nice that such a league is out there).

The MBBL3 did exist for 2 months. It was the super intense playtest league for LRB 1.0. We played 250 games in 6 weeks to test out that rules set for the BBRC at that time (PBeM each player had to take 3 turns a day and play 6 games at the same time. Most of those 17 names involved in that league are no longer around.

Galak

[Darkson]

In fact .... I'd need to check ... but I think/believe that ALL 6 of the secret weapons are BETTER now than they were in 3rd edition.

Possibly, but not better (for me and imo) than they were in LRB 1-4. A boring "one drive" (unless you buy bribes) is less fun imo than the random sending offs they used to have.

More balanced? Maybe. More fun? Nowhere near.

[Darkson]

What was fun for us was running down elves with SPP gaining Deathrollers. Yeah that's right getting SPP for killing off of a foul with a Deathroller and then collecting a bounty too!
1 player in 100 gets 4 skills and those rare few die within 2 games!! MWA HA HA HA!!!! Spilling beer on the board because you're laughing at your own bomber who just blew himself up along with your mutated ogre with two heads and two magic helmets!! WAAAAGGG!!! Trolls flinging goblins with pojnted helmets at minotaurs with chainsaws!!

That's Blood Bowl.

Blood Bowl now is all about calculations and balance and team values and 33% chance of winning, and perpetual testing and feedback.

Wow! Nothing more needs to be said.

[Dark Lord (retired)]

Blood Bowl now is all about calculations and balance and team values and 33% chance of winning, and perpetual testing and feedback.

Random, meaningless & completely unfair dice rolls that stick it right up your ass at the worst possible time make too many people cry, so they got axed. Need to sell minis to whiney babies, ya know.

Blood Bowl shouldn't be fair, or balanced. It should be mean, nasty and completely hilarious in its unfairness.

It should (and can) be both.

Look at the MBBL leagues. 1 straight, 2 horribly unbalanced (it is won every year by the coach who best finds and abuses a combo).

No need to rude though, is there Eric? People are allowed to enjoy the game for whatever reasons they want, and they doesn't make them worse as people (and that is what you are implying here, whatever you retort).

Joe

nah, not at all. That's not at all what I meant! IMO it isn't as fun but only in Blood Bowl!! I play a lot of board games and some of them are very dry and full of calculations etc.

There is fun in that.

My point is that putting that methodology into Blood Bowl (or any sports game) is not my idea of fun.

The problem is that the current rules don't fit what the crowd wants. If you tailored the rules from the bottom up (rather than top down) to fit the wishes of the crowd you wouldn't need so many tweaks, checks, balances and calculations.

Leave that stuff to Starfleet Battles and the like.

[Marlow]

The problem is that the current rules don't fit what the crowd wants.

Which Crowd?

I really like LRB5.
After five years of playing Heroclix it is nice to come back to a game where the erratta is not longer than the rule book!

Yes there are a few tweeks that would make the game better; but if LRB6 never came out it would not worry me.

[Lychanthrope]

The problem is that the current rules don't fit what the crowd wants.

You, Darkson, and Snew make a croud??? Sorry DL but I LIKE LRB 5.

[Digger Goreman]

Who knows, maybe one day we'll have it all...!

One of the most stable rulebooks in the history of sports is the one for American Baseball.... 125 years and the rules committee hasn't met since 1985 and hasn't changed a rule in longer than that....

I hear, and see, BB moving in that direction... which will eventually please the one's that don't want "constant" change... and will eventually, as I see it, incite another Oberwald of house rules for folks that want more "wackiness"....

Reminds me of poker... there's a certain, official, way to play poker... then there's an almost infinite variety of house rules, away from the circuit and casinos....

Hang in there, malcontents, milk and honey just around the bend...!

[Dark Lord (retired)]

The problem is that the current rules don't fit what the crowd wants.

You, Darkson, and Snew make a croud??? Sorry DL but I LIKE LRB 5.

Heroclix? really? This is what I am talking about. I think some of you have about as much idea of what balance is as heroclix player. It's infuriating that this is the sort of people suggesting rules and feedback to the vault.

"He who spends the most, wins the most." is not a strategy game. It's a marketing ploy for kids.

LRB is NOT balanced. It's almost balanced...if you look at it a certain way.
That's not to say it doesn't work. 3rd ed worked too, doesn't mean it was balanced and good for competition.

LRB is trying to take that silly beer & pretzels game and make it serious strategy game. It can't be done.

Pay attention because here's where I explain my point of view:

A 100 TV Chaos team is not equal to a 100 Elf team. Nor is a 100 TV Dwarf team equal to a 100 TV Goblin team.

The teams in Blood Bowl are inherently unequal and the pricing of the players (the value) is subjective. It's not based on any real numbers. Sure there's a formula...a formula from 3rd edition where one of the steps is literally "Fudge it" The Team Value therefore is also subjective because it stems from this formula. And that's just the beginning we haven't talked about starting skills yet. Or what about ability scores. The Troll/Zombie example should be referred to here.

The rookie teams in Blood Bowl start out unbalanced. The cost of players is subjective and abilities are way out of whack in relation to each other.

So building rules that try to balance them perfectly down the road...and at different stages of their life...is futile. You can get close but you reach a point where when you push on this piece another piece pops out. When you slide the piece that popped out back in, something else rips a little.

It's not well done. It's clunky and has no achievable goal.

However, if you redesigned the game to that a rookie Human team and a rookie Khemri team were intrinsically equal in a quantifiable way the game would work a million times better, Inducements would be much easier to design...or even be unnecessary!


I never said LRB didn't work. I never said Darkson, Snew and I were a majority. I never said any of that. Please go back and read this thread.

And besides if you are so happy with LRB and think it is 100% balanced, why do you care what happens in LRB 6?



[edited out my asshattery]

[Lychanthrope]

Even in baseball there's a pretty big dispute about the DH and if the pitcher should hit. That's why they have two leagues.

[Dark Lord (retired)]

That's not why they have two leagues.

DH didn't come around until 1973. It ain't that controversial to anyone but fans.

[Snew]

DL- don't bother. Peopel are going to like what they're told to like. That's what this looks like to me. Blood Bowl is now 40K.

[Dark Lord (retired)]

Well if the problem is that the only game experience they have is Clix, MtG and Grandma Wendy there might be hope.

Maybe I can't get one of them to play Settlers of Catan and they'll be born again.

[Jural]

Dark Lord,

No offense, but I think you are really the one who is off here. The majority of the people don't want balanced competition, and they don't want zany madcap fun. They want to win. Balance is the argument the ultra-competitive hide behind when they want to tweak teams so they can win more easily.

If you re-design the system from the ground up, you might hurt someone's winning percentage, you might make their pet team worse, get rid of a rules loophole they exploit, etc. The problem with ultra-competitive players is not that they want balance, it's that they want IMBALANCE. On their side. And they'll take issue with anything that deviates from that.

I'm not aiming this at anyone on this forum, and I certainly don't think LRB 5 attracts more of these players than previous versions (to the contrary, I think it hurts these players more than LRB 4.) I just think that as long as there are imbalances with teams and methods of winning that equate to risk minimization, it is a natural side effect of the game... Certainly without a strong commish in place.

[Dark Lord (retired)]

The majority of the people don't want balanced competition, and they don't want zany madcap fun. They want to win. Balance is the argument the ultra-competitive hide behind when they want to tweak teams so they can win more easily.

This is a load bull. Most of the topics on this forum are about balance. Are you saying that when Tom is talking about balance he's hiding behind an argument so he can tweak his pet team?
Get real. You are stretching farther than usual just to disagree with me for the sake of disagreement. Any fool can look at this board...even in the General Topics section and find thread after thread discussing fine tuning the rules.

The entire purpose of the Vault and PBBL was to achieve better "balance" in the rules. So don't hand me this malarkey about it being a minority of munchkins trying to bend the rules for their fav teams.

If you re-design the system from the ground up, you might hurt someone's winning percentage, you might make their pet team worse, get rid of a rules loophole they exploit, etc. The problem with ultra-competitive players is not that they want balance, it's that they want IMBALANCE. On their side. And they'll take issue with anything that deviates from that.

I'm not aiming this at anyone on this forum, and I certainly don't think LRB 5 attracts more of these players than previous versions (to the contrary, I think it hurts these players more than LRB 4.) I just think that as long as there are imbalances with teams and methods of winning that equate to risk minimization, it is a natural side effect of the game... Certainly without a strong commish in place.

Do you smoke crack? So basically what you're saying is that all the tournament goers out there who want balanced competitive play actually want imbalance and min/maxing and munchkinism and are a bunch twits who can't win for real?

Like I said, pretty far reach just to have a disagreement here.

Did a search for posts by Jural including the word 'balance.'

Ta-da! 3rd one down had this:

ELF: For balance, I would say Morg (catcher.) But that's just ridiculous! So, fine as is. I originally wrote down Morg (Catcher) then I slapped myself and was more sensible afterwards.

So wow. You're discussing balance of Inducements. You posted a lot in that thread...not just that quote. And all the time you're talking about balance. And that was just the first 10 results that came up!

Should I keep looking for all the times you have talked about rules tweaking for balance?

One thing I can't understand- why are there no thrower star players in Blood Bowl?

Throwers (quarterbacks) are the stars of American Football, and were prevalent as stars in the earlier editions of Blood Bowl.

Now I accept that blitzers are more famous than throwers in Blood Bowl (More than accept it, I think it's fitting for the game, and enjoyable), but I can't figure out why there are zero throwers!

I figure it had to be a decision somebody made- but it seems odd to me. As a matter of fact, having throwers available to at least some of the teams really would balance out some of the bash/agility imbalance which is perceived in the game, as throwers really add options to teams. Imagine a Chaos team with a thrower... everyone is happy, the chaos player who can now move the ball, the opponent who is facing the thrower instead of Lord Borak...

This one was a thread started by you. In search of balance again, I see.

You munchkin you.

If you just want to argue, you simply PM me and call me a dickhead or something. But that was a sad attempt.