Taking Loner off Big Guys

[Glowworm]

Remove Big Guys from all teams except Stunties.

Works for me..... (Dark elf player says..)

[Glowworm]

Get rid of loner and add in a new skill like "big guy" so they can't use re-rolls at all.

I wouldn't take loner out because big guys then become way too reliable. The only big guys i could ever see being reliable would be trees.

Hate to say this but why not just make adjust loner to read cannot use team re-rolls and give them "Pro" so when you burn the re-roll and fail the 4+ roll its not so painfull, I know this would give them a chance at a re-roll every turn but its not an automatic success and giving them G access is a major change to game dynamics
Treeman first 3 skills = Block/Pass Block(+3Ma who cares if he fails to catch it!!) /Dodge (on a double) anyone?

[Marlow]

I do not think there is anything wrong with the Big Guys, I think one of the main problems Goblins and 'flings suffer from is their inability to land.

I think the "Jump Up" skill should give them a +1 to Landing, and it would be nice if an Accurate pass gave a +1 as well even though they would still scatter.

[mattgslater]

OK. I understand that most of y'all think both are bad ideas. I knew that going in. That's cool.

That's also not the question. Galak got it bang-on: I got an evil to pick. If I can get a compromise (I probably can't), I can put in an anti-anti on doubles, or even apply it to a standard skill roll for Loner (so if you really REALLY hate Loner, you can do something about it at the cost of a skill). I don't think that'll fly: these guys are old-school, and if I don't do something here I won't get any traction.

Hmmmm... how about this? I might be able to sell it.

On doubles, you can buy off an anti-skill (I might restructure Really Stupid and Wild Animal to be two-parters) for +30k in TV. If you lose an anti-skill and don't have G access, you gain G access for all future skills.

Probably not, though. I think it's a matter of choosing between no Loner or G access. Maybe the "anti-anti plus G-access" rule above, but change doubles to regular rolls? I don't like that at all, but I don't like any of it (status quo included) and am left scratching my head because I really like the effect a Big Guy can have on a BB team's strategic options (especially a team like Humans or Norse).

G access after the second skill? That would be cool, but a tad bulky.

G access @ 30k on an 8+, or anything on doubles? That would be even bulkier, but not outrageous, and that gives a 50/50 shot at G access (double 1-3, plus 15 perms at 8+ including double 4, all 6 10+ rolls), tripling the total odds of G access but not affecting the odds of other categories. That 8+ rule could be incorporated into the improvement table as easily as into the Big Guys rules. I could package that with an anti-skill buy-off as a G skill, and that might fly.

[Dark Lord (retired)]

Why not create big guys that don't need negative traits and special rules?

[mattgslater]

Why not create big guys that don't need negative traits and special rules?

Great! Got any ideas? 200k Ogres aren't gonna do it for me and MB on ST5 players without Claws is not optional.

[Jural]

Quick, snarky answer: They are called mummies.

Longer, more serious answer: In the early PBBL process, the idea of having Big Men count as 2 players was kicked around. The Big Men all gained Multiple Block for free and dropped loner. I THINK they also got General Access.

I think it worked quite well, but I believe others weren't so enthusiastic. I'm often in the minority with stuff like this!

Maybe it's not the best solution, but I think it's one way of dealing with the removal of loner. OK, it doesn't meet all of Dark Lord's criteria (Loner AND no special rules) but it's halfway there.

Why not create big guys that don't need negative traits and special rules?

Great! Got any ideas? 200k Ogres aren't gonna do it for me and MB on ST5 players without Claws is not optional.

[Dark Lord (retired)]

The problem is that 5529 has become the sacred cow of ogres. When I suggest something else, the same people that want to tweak ogres will go, "Buh uh! You can't have ogres at ST 4!! You just can't!!"

But anyway. Why not:

Ogres 5 4 2 8 Bonehead, Juggernaut, Throw Team Mate GS AP 100K


There. A big flesh ram. He's a less armored Black Orc that weighs a ton. This reflects the fact that Black Orcs are trained killers, and ogres are lazy brutes.

[PubBowler]

The problem is that 5529 has become the sacred cow of ogres. When I suggest something else, the same people that want to tweak ogres will go, "Buh uh! You can't have ogres at ST 4!! You just can't!!"

I've only heard one guy say that. But it is JJ...

[stormmaster1]

Ogres 5 4 2 8 Bonehead, Juggernaut, Throw Team Mate GS AP 100K


There. A big flesh ram. He's a less armored Black Orc that weighs a ton. This reflects the fact that Black Orcs are trained killers, and ogres are lazy brutes.

Buh uh! You can't have ogres at ST 4!! You just can't!!!!!!!
booooo!!!!! Bad idea!!!!!!

[PubBowler]

Ogres 5 4 2 8 Bonehead, Juggernaut, Throw Team Mate GS AP 100K


There. A big flesh ram. He's a less armored Black Orc that weighs a ton. This reflects the fact that Black Orcs are trained killers, and ogres are lazy brutes.

Buh uh! You can't have ogres at ST 4!! You just can't!!!!!!!
booooo!!!!! Bad idea!!!!!!

Oh, ok.
2.

[Joemanji]

The problem is that 5529 has become the sacred cow of ogres. When I suggest something else, the same people that want to tweak ogres will go, "Buh uh! You can't have ogres at ST 4!! You just can't!!"

But anyway. Why not:

Ogres 5 4 2 8 Bonehead, Juggernaut, Throw Team Mate GS AP 100K


There. A big flesh ram. He's a less armored Black Orc that weighs a ton. This reflects the fact that Black Orcs are trained killers, and ogres are lazy brutes.

Hmm, interesting. Though that statline has a negatrait - I thought the point of ST4 was not to have them? Juggernaut makes them Blitzer types by default though (or you aren't getting their worth). I don't like that personally, for me they are the archetypal lumbering line blockers. And why AV 8?

How about a new skill that reflects their size? Like "these players are huge and so may not be ignore all defensive assists" (or maybe just one). Or add in 2nd ed Toughness (-1 to all Injury rolls).

Or perhaps use AV as the signifier of size? Added with MB and TS (they hit hard and are tough to take down). Like:

Ogre 5 4 2 10 Mighty Blow, Thick Skull, TTM

Not sure I like that personally, but it's another angle.

Joe

[Dark Lord (retired)]

Hmm, interesting. Though that statline has a negatrait - I thought the point of ST4 was not to have them?

Doh! I didn't mean to put bone head in there.

I'm a robot too.

Juggernaut makes them Blitzer types by default though (or you aren't getting their worth). I don't like that personally, for me they are the archetypal lumbering line blockers.

Change Juggernaut to Stand Firm.

And why AV 8?

Balance AND Fluff together! OMG what a concept. Well there's nothing in the fluff that says these guys have skin as hard as armor. Thick Skull + AV 9 is very tough...do Ogres have skin as tough as a Dwarf in full armor? I don't think so. Besides it makes them more balanced by making them easier to hurt, and until we get more attribute scores I can't give them low Defensive ST.

How about a new skill that reflects their size? Like "these players are huge and so may not be ignore all defensive assists" (or maybe just one). Or add in 2nd ed Toughness (-1 to all Injury rolls).

Wouldn't stand firm be easier?

Or perhaps use AV as the signifier of size? Added with MB and TS (they hit hard and are tough to take down). Like:

Ogre 5 4 2 10 Mighty Blow, Thick Skull, TTM

Not sure I like that personally, but it's another angle.

Joe

For that guy I would make him 4 4 1 10...but then how different from a troll is he?

[Jural]

Ogre- 5 4 2 8 Mighty Blow, Thick Skull, Throw Team Mate GS/AP 100k

I like that as a basic idea to start. Maybe Juggernaut, maybe Stand Firm, but maybe they don't need anything.

While I'm here, let's look at the other pieces in the game.

Minotaur 5 4 2 8 Mighty Blow, Frenzy, Horns MS/GAP 120k

Troll 4 4 1 9 Mighty Blow, Regenerate, Always Hungry, Throw Team Mate S/GAP 90k

Kroxigor 6 4 1 8 Mighty Blow, Prehensile Tail S/GAP 110k

Mummy 3 4 1 9 Mighty Blow, Regenerate, Break Tackle S/GAP 100k

Hmm... I'm not hating it. I find myself wondering if Chaos Warriors, Black Orc Blockers, and Bull Centaurs might be better at Strength 3 (some of them at least) with a skill or two to compensate. And the Ogre team would need to be started again from scratch... 6 Strength 4 pieces with re-roll access, general skills and no bonehead = scary, even with 2 AG

[Joemanji]

To be honest, I don't see the point. I'd rather just remove big guys altogether than change the STs of half the players in the game.

Besides ... big guys are fine as is. They are quite often the worst players on a team, and a liability to use. This works fine for me. Every player should be good at something and bad at something. Big guys are strong and unreliable.