Zombies vs Golems on a Necromantic team

Marlow · Post by **Marlow** » Tue Dec 18, 2007 5:10 pm

The difference between Necro and Undead to me is that two Ghouls get upgrading into Wolves and the two Mummy's get downgraded into Golems.

Perhaps if they were more like Saurus (Higher MV and AG 1) than BOB they would see some more play. After all when does a Golem ever really get the ball?

In a League they are Super-Zombies and I could see maybe taking one in a Tournament but never both.

How About this?
Golem 90kgp 5 4 1 9 Regen, Stand Firm GS APM

DamianTheLost · Post by **DamianTheLost** » Tue Dec 18, 2007 9:08 pm

I like the extra MA. This makes them better. But give the break tackle and they start getting useful. I wouldn't mind paying for that either and out them back to 110k or even 120

So maybe

5 4 1 9
stand firm, regen, thick skull, break tackle.

Reasonable trade of for the - AG

Digger Goreman · Post by **Digger Goreman** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 12:31 am

Well, there's one thing a Zombie can't do, and that's cover the downfield sprint....

It takes careful positioning, but a Golem that sets up either next to the wide zone, or in the wide zone, just back of the LOS, can run behind a key player and put a tackle zone on him/her.... The wight/were are usually able to blitz downfield with the ball or to receive.... Often the difference between an assisted block on the ball carrier, or even putting a tackle zone on him, is that one hex occupied by the Golem....

A zombie in that spot is a ST3 that can be pushed or downed.... A Golem is harder to take down... and will not be pushed so that the defender still has to go around that square....

ngoike · Post by **ngoike** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 3:32 am

Well, there's one thing a Zombie can't do, and that's cover the downfield sprint....

Really? I think zombies could do this more or less as well, though I'd prefer an actual cage.

Both golems and zombies only have MV 4, so it seems this would slow down your ball carrier, who is MV6, 7, or 8. They also are highly unlikely to have dodge, so it will normally need to be a clear path. I plan more around a full cage, utilizing wights, and blodgy ghouls and wolves.

Second, since their MV is the same, the only advantage a golem has is +1 STR. The point of all of this is that, if you forgo 2 golems, and use zombies instead, you save 120-140K in TV. 2 zombies and the inducements have been much more useful to me in getting this team winning.

Craigtw · Post by **Craigtw** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 10:50 pm

Digger Goreman wrote:Well, there's one thing a Zombie can't do, and that's cover the downfield sprint....

Actually ngoike, I think Digger was referring to covering the downfield sprint on the defensive. In this case, the +1 ST is a plus at it makes it harder to put him down, and then the Stand Firm would make him very difficult to push off of the ball carrier. So, I can see the point about the golem being good in this role.

Digger Goreman · Post by **Digger Goreman** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 11:32 pm

Actually, guys, I am talking on the offensive....

The point missed is that Golem's make unmoveable roadblocks to defensive pursuit by players just back of the line of scrimmage....

Wish I had one of those Madden drawing doo-hickeys....

Typically I set up with a wight in the wide zones accompanied by a Were/Golem, then the other (Golem/Were) two or three squares behind the LOS and next to the wide zone....

The Zombies on the line will tie up any linemen/defensive backs they can move/block their way to.... The Golems slant inside and put themselves in a positon where they a) Have a tackle zone on a linebacker and b) make it so, even if they go down, the linebacker has to move an extra square around them to pursue the ball carrier.... The Zombie could try this, but he's prone to pushes that move him aside... not so the Golem....

DamianTheLost · Post by **DamianTheLost** » Thu Dec 20, 2007 12:10 am

So do you hold a couple of turns and then make a pass (I recall you having two AG 4 wights). Do you use the ghouls for that purpose. I wish I could get pass or accurate on my sure hands ghoul so I could play the draw. Oh by the way, I lost 0-2 tonight (couldn't roll a single 3+ with a reroll the entire game) but my block golem got a ST upgrade. I start to like him now

Digger Goreman · Post by **Digger Goreman** » Thu Dec 20, 2007 12:27 am

Ah, yes, the "AG4" Wights, alias the "Butterfinger Brothers"...

Those idiots couldn't seem to make a pass if they were next to each other and playing toss....

Lotsa double 1s....

I really pretty much ran the hell outta the ball.... 27 games and I've only made 12 completions... one by a ghoul who came and went... before I finally got my stuff together and bought two ghouls.... Now they stay in the backfield and run the ball up to a were....

In spite of having, actually, 3 AG4 upgrades (my replacement Were got AG4 on his first roll) on the team, I think Stat Upgrades hurt the game.... And might explain a generous portion of my team's success.... Still, this is not gonna change and so:

CONGRATS ON YOUR GOLEM BECOMING A BIG GUY!

stormmaster1 · Post by **stormmaster1** » Thu Dec 20, 2007 12:43 am

stat upgrades hurt game balance, but make it more interesting imo.

Digger Goreman · Post by **Digger Goreman** » Thu Dec 20, 2007 12:43 am

DamianTheLost wrote:So do you hold a couple of turns and then make a pass

Depends on whom I'm playing, but I like to score quick and turn over the ball.... Playing offense similar to the way I play defense, I bottle up the players that don't cage quickly (Bootsie: the Zombie with Kick is great for that) and rush the receivers with two Wights and Weres... and sometimes the Ghouls! Especially deadly is the Blitz on Kickoff... or the pooch kick and bum rush!

I only lost 2 out of 8 last season, 0-1 as a mild underdog to an Amazon team that killed my 80Spp Were and then scored double sixes on a last turn, last half long bomb

Yeah, Nuffle, give me the burn!

The second game was 1-3 in which Jord-hell Foul-breeze leaped and dodged me to death.... I think I know how to handle that, now, at least on offense.... Hope I never get to find out... but that's asking too much....

Cramy · Post by **Cramy** » Thu Dec 20, 2007 2:01 pm

I like to keep the Ghoul in a cage and move up slowly. Then run and hand-off to a Ghoul, Were or Wight who can then score.

I like stats increases. If one team gets too many, then it can get a bit crazy, but you just try harder to kill those guys more. Stats increases allow you to build real stars, and that's fun. Killing real stars is fun too.

DamianTheLost · Post by **DamianTheLost** » Thu Dec 20, 2007 6:29 pm

[quote="Cramy"]I like to keep the Ghoul in a cage and move up slowly. Then run and hand-off to a Ghoul, Were or Wight who can then score.

I like stats increases. If one team gets too many, then it can get a bit crazy, but you just try harder to kill those guys more. Stats increases allow you to build real stars, and that's fun. Killing real stars is fun too.

[/quote]

haha yeah that's it. Doubles will do the same if a team stacks to many. I still look forward to getting AG on something else than a zombie on this team. I do much the same as you on offence, but only if I can control the other line. Oh and I hate wrestle strip ballers. Even with two dice against it pops the ball loose almost everytime with a reroll...

Cramy · Post by **Cramy** » Thu Dec 20, 2007 7:50 pm

DamianTheLost wrote: Oh and I hate wrestle strip ballers. Even with two dice against it pops the ball loose almost everytime with a reroll...

I love them, when they are on my team.

One of the best combos in the game for agility teams now IMO. Another tool to break those high strength cages.

DamianTheLost · Post by **DamianTheLost** » Thu Dec 20, 2007 9:55 pm

Yep it's not broken at all. That's why I will go for a wretling Slann team in our next league. That wrestle/strip b./tackle is amazing for ball stealing in comes leapes my catcher scoofs the ball, and BANG - touchdown

ngoike · Post by **ngoike** » Wed Dec 26, 2007 9:05 pm

OK, trying to pull this back to the original discussion.

Assuming golems are an improved lineman positional, it is interesting to compare them to the other positionals that share that roll. Most improved linemen lose AGI, gain STR, and possible skill access. What's also important is how they compare the actual linemen on their specific team.

Black Orc Blockers, for 30K extra you gain +1 STR and STR skill access. Losing 1 MV and 1 AGI, which for a guy who spends his time on the line isn't a big deal. And you can have 4 of them.

Mummies, for 70k more you gain +2 STR, +1 AV and Mighty Blow, losing AGI, and MV again. But you only get 2 of them, possible more on khemri if you don't play with the experimental rules.

Chaos Dwarf Blockers, for 30k more you Block, Tackle, Thick Skull and Str Access, plus Mutation access on doubles, oh and +2 AV. Losing 2 MV and 1 AGI only. And you can get 6 of them.

Chaos Warriors, for 40k more gain +1 STR and +1 AV, losing only 1 MV and horns. And you can have 4 of them.

Most of these postionals add around 30-40k in cost over a standard linemen, but add STR, skill access, and often strong, "first pick", starting skills like Mighty Blow or Block. The mummy is an exception, he costs 70k more, but +2 STR and mighty blow makes it more than worth while. Possibly the best upgraded lineman postional in the game (thought losing G skill access may have lost them the title).

Now the Golem, for 60-70k more gains +1 STR and +1 AV, thick skull and stand firm, and STR skill access. Loses nothing. But you only can have 2 of them.

Golems add as much to the linemen cost as mummies, but are far inferior. Their starting skill package is argueably the worst for the positionals that add skills, since there are no "first" pick skills added. Only having 2 golems hurts, as you see from the examples, other teams that have improved linemen normally get 4-6 of the position. The only other team limited to 2 is Undead, but mummies are so much better it works out. By not giving anything up, it keeps the golems cost high, other improved positionals lose MV, AGI or skills in order to stay cheaper. Keeping the AGI 2 and MV 4, doesn't really improve what the golem can do for the team.

What I am trying to show in the example is that in their specific role, golems add the least amount of benefit to their team when you consider the cost you pay to upgrade a lineman to that position. So the end result is a lot of players that don't bother upgrading.