Zombies vs Golems on a Necromantic team

[Marlow]

What I am trying to show in the example is that in their specific role, golems add the least amount of benefit to their team when you consider the cost you pay to upgrade a lineman to that position. So the end result is a lot of players that don't bother upgrading.

I think that sums it up quite nicly. Taken out of context of the rest of the team Golems are an average player for 100kgp. However when put with the rest of the team and compared to other teams they did not really give enough bang for the buck.

Drop them to AG 1 thats what I say!

[DamianTheLost]

I like the extra MA. This makes them better. But give the break tackle and they start getting useful. I wouldn't mind paying for that either and out them back to 110k or even 120

So maybe

5 4 1 9
stand firm, regen, thick skull, break tackle.

Reasonable trade of for the - AG

The team lacks strengh. Maybe they should start with guard to have a nice SF/guard combo. That seperates them from mummies/tomb guards and help the rest of the tem considerably

[ngoike]

Yeah I'm a fan of guard on them, as I mentioned earlier. Since you can only have 2 of them, and they are only strength 4, Guard is an excellant skill to make them more effective for the team.

Along with dropping AGI to 1, I also consider losing thick skull, so they keep their cost in line.

It also does a nice job of making them play differently then mini versions of the mummies.

[Quadrasonic]

My good friend currently plays Necro in our league. He is a good player, and I was surprised to see his starting roster include a Flesh Golem. I, like most everyone else here, had considered them way overpriced. But that extra point of strength proved invaluable when securing his defensive wide-zones and making a strong offensive LOS.

The thing's Stand Firm skill has also frustrated me on a number of occasions. Sure, it is not what it once was and can be canceled a bit by Juggernaut, but it is still a nice defensive skill.

1. Of course, and as already stated, it is imposible to push the Golem off the pitch.
2. It is much more difficult to punch holes in a Necro defensive line or break the Necro's offensive cage.
3. A push result againts the Golem on the blocking dice will not help eliminate his assisting with other blocks.
4. A block which fails to knock the Golem over always leaves the blocking player in a position to get hit in the Necro turn.

I still think they are overpriced. But when their price drops in the next LRB, I predict them becoming as central to every Necro team as the Werewolves.

[ngoike]

I'm not trying to say golems don't have a use in general. I think most people with experience understand the benefits of stand firm. Rather, I'm saying that you pay too much for what they offer.

As people are learning, LRB5 encourages coaches to remove unneeded expenses from a team or risk giving up stronger inducements. Thus a fair amount of coaches are realizing that golems are overcosted for what they do for you, and just not using them. People accept that golems are inferior to mummies, so why why do they cost just as much?

I don't see a 10k price reduction changing this in any way. They're still far too expensive for the value they add to the team.

[Quadrasonic]

If Black Orcs are worth 80K with the same stats but without the skills, then Flesh Golems should be about 20K more. The Mummies are most certainly under-priced, so compairing them with the Golems does not bring the discussion to a close.

[stormmaster1]

If Black Orcs are worth 80K with the same stats but without the skills, then Flesh Golems should be about 20K more. The Mummies are most certainly under-priced, so compairing them with the Golems does not bring the discussion to a close.

golems give less for that 20k. they bash less than black orcs do, they have regenerate, which won't help much in 1 off games, but keeps them alive longer. Does stand firm help out that much.

That 20k is used in skills which probably don't affect the game as much, unless you find good ways of utilising stand firm.

[GalakStarscraper]

That 20k is used in skills which probably don't affect the game as much, unless you find good ways of utilising stand firm.

I have to admit ... I just don't agree. If I came up to most players a proposed taking a Black Orc and adding Regneration, Thick Skull, and Stand Firm to him for only 20k they'd tell me I was nuts. But somehow with the Flesh Golem ... he's overpriced.

Galak

[Jural]

That 20k is used in skills which probably don't affect the game as much, unless you find good ways of utilising stand firm.

I have to admit ... I just don't agree. If I came up to most players a proposed taking a Black Orc and adding Regneration, Thick Skull, and Stand Firm to him for only 20k they'd tell me I was nuts. But somehow with the Flesh Golem ... he's overpriced.

Galak

It's the 0-4 (and a strength 5 Troll to boot) vs. 0-2.

Black Orc Blockers are extremely well supported, but Flesh Golems really languish. I think high TV Necro teams benefit from Fleshies (2 more guard pieces, extra Strength) but that's it.

Personally, I always hope to get two zombies with +1 STR. Sometimes it happens! The funny thing is, 4 4 2 8 Regen 90k is almost just as good as 4 4 2 9 Stand Firm, Thick Skull, Regenerate in most situations!

Once I pair those two with the Flesh Golems, I begin to see the Necro team shine.

Anyway, when I start a Necro team in a developed league, I would also consider not picking up a Fleshy because of how useful they as Mercs. Adding Mighty Blow, or Guard, or Block as the team warrants is extremely useful to controlling the line of scrimmage- Especially once your team has a few block zombies.

I just see the zombie as a really good value for money bashing lineman, not necessarily a short coming of the Flesh Golem. When you have 8AV and Regenerate with 3 STR, and only cost 40k, you have the bare essentials needed for the position... Why pay 60k more to be better at a part of the game which you aren't good at?

[ngoike]

I have to admit ... I just don't agree. If I came up to most players a proposed taking a Black Orc and adding Regneration, Thick Skull, and Stand Firm to him for only 20k they'd tell me I was nuts. But somehow with the Flesh Golem ... he's overpriced.

Regeneration is by far the best skill on the golems, and I'm sure any of the other blockers I discussed would love it, including Black Orcs, but you have to remember our 40K linemen already have it. So it's not an upgrade you're paying for, you still get the best skill for 60-70k less.

Second, for the "upgrade" in skills, you are limited to only 2 of the positional. Would Orc players really want more expensive Black Orcs when they can only get 2 of them? It's easy for Orc teams to max out on Blitzers and Black Orcs because of how economical their positionals are. That's not the case with Necromantic team, who struggles to start 6 positionals.

Last, I really don't think making golems cheaper is the way to go, because it will only naturally get into these problems. Rather, as I proposed, a skill change ( thick skull to guard ), and put them back to 110k or 120k. Let them be as expensive as a mummy, but they have to be worth it, since it can't be with STR 5 it has to be with their skills.

[Darkson]

It's the 0-4 (and a strength 5 Troll to boot) vs. 0-2.

Black Orc Blockers are extremely well supported, but Flesh Golems really languish. I think high TV Necro teams benefit from Fleshies (2 more guard pieces, extra Strength) but that's it.

Bingo.

[mattgslater]

It's the 0-4 (and a strength 5 Troll to boot) vs. 0-2.

I'll second that. The BOB is a mediocre deal at 80k who ends up being a game-changer because he's 0-4 on a team with 4 good blitzers to make up for the mediocrity of their passing game. The FG at 110k is the good deal you just can't take: he's 0-2, so he's semi-ignorable, and at that price (and opportunity cost) most teams won't be able to get two anyway. 100k is definitely an improvement: while Necro coaches will scratch their heads, everybody else will be looking at them and wondering if they're idiots.

[ngoike]

Why pay 60k more to be better at a part of the game which you aren't good at?

Exactly!!!!

2 very expensive STR 4 guys with no access to a Big Guy. Plus due to the cost you can't really start with both of them anyway, unless you abandon other more important poitionals.

So if your line is going to be outclassed anyway, accept it and take all zombies. For a heck of a lot less, they put tackle zones on guys and with AV8 and Regen, they tend not to die.

Either make them not cost 2X a zombie, since all they really need is +1 str and Str access.

Or give them some skills worth paying for to start with. I'd like to actually see an experienced necro coach consider taking Golems over Wolves on a starting team.

[Marlow]

That 20k is used in skills which probably don't affect the game as much, unless you find good ways of utilising stand firm.

I have to admit ... I just don't agree. If I came up to most players a proposed taking a Black Orc and adding Regneration, Thick Skull, and Stand Firm to him for only 20k they'd tell me I was nuts. But somehow with the Flesh Golem ... he's overpriced.

Galak

I do not think the Flesh Golem is overpriced; he just does not play well with the rest of the team.

Once he gets some skills; sure he is great - however his skills do not really help him progress. Admitidly BOB does not have anything to really help them progress individually either, just a stronger overall team.

While the team gets Regeneration they are denied an Apothecary; so that is somewhat of a balance.

[mattgslater]

I think the 10k cheaper thing will do it, frankly.

5x Zombie
2x Werewolf
1x FG
2x Wight
1x Ghoul
3x RR

Now, THAT sounds like a fun team to play with. You can't do that with 110k FGs. In a 110k tourney, you either add an FG (12 players) if you're getting skills or a Ghoul and a 4th RR at the expense of a Zombie if it's a rookie thing.

100k for a Flesh Golem is a humongously great deal, but on this team all the good deals are the expensive ones, and as others have noted they don't integrate especially well. That might be enough.