Zombies vs Golems on a Necromantic team

[DamianTheLost]

I'm still not convinced. Let them have guard as the sole player with this as a starting skill. this would help zombies develop faster as well. Let them go back to 110k, drop thick skull and AG2 to AG1, and you have a nice positional, and block, guard, SF in no time which is invaluable to the team. We could play test and see if it's over the top

[mattgslater]

Let them have guard as the sole player with this as a starting skill.

IMO, that can't be allowed to happen with any starting player, ever. Even if it were spectacularly warranted, I'd rather see a new boutique skill (yuck) than a player starting with Guard. That's a game-breaker. You want Guard? Earn it.

If fixing the player won't be accomplished with a price drop, then you could un-nerf Stand Firm, keep them at 110k. Or instead, give them Break Tackle too, and put them up to 120k. Or give them Break Tackle in lieu of Thick Skull at 110k. That last one might work well... I still think the price drop is the lesser evil and will probably lead to more usage than one would think.

[Digger Goreman]

I don't think it will lead to more useage:

These are my recommended lineups:

Superior Line: 5x Zombies; 2x Flesh Golems; 2x Wights; 2x Werewolves. 2x Rerolls, 2FF.

"Little Big Guy": 4x Zombies; 1x Flesh Golem; 2x Ghouls; 2x Wights; 2x Werewolves. 2x Rerolls, 3FF.

Superior Backfield: 5x Zombies; 2x Ghouls; 2x Wights; 2x Werewolves. 3x Rerolls, 3FF

Changing the Golem by 10k ain't gonna do much.... the first lineup will just change the FF/AC/CL equation by +20k (not enough to convert a Zombie to a Ghoul); the second by +10k... not change the third....

With the re-pricing, I suppose you could go:
5x Zombies, 1x Flesh Golem, 1x Ghoul, 2x Wights, 2x Werewolves, 3x Rerolls and 0 FF... though I'm not really keen on this lineup....

[DamianTheLost]

Let them have guard as the sole player with this as a starting skill.

IMO, that can't be allowed to happen with any starting player, ever. Even if it were spectacularly warranted, I'd rather see a new boutique skill (yuck) than a player starting with Guard. That's a game-breaker. You want Guard? Earn it.

If fixing the player won't be accomplished with a price drop, then you could un-nerf Stand Firm, keep them at 110k. Or instead, give them Break Tackle too, and put them up to 120k. Or give them Break Tackle in lieu of Thick Skull at 110k. That last one might work well... I still think the price drop is the lesser evil and will probably lead to more usage than one would think.

It may be overpowered, but right now we have a pretty undefined blocker positional that does nothing more than give assist and stand in the way. The team either need them to be more mobile or mre adept at what their doing e.g. assisting or blocking. That's why I suggested:

FG: 5 4 1 9 Stand firm, Break Tackle, Regeneration

though break tackle doesn't stack well with SF IMO

[Marlow]

though break tackle doesn't stack well with SF IMO

I think they make quite a nice combination.
Went he is standing still he can not moved, and when moving can not be stopped.

[ngoike]

I don't think guard is overpowered. You can only have 2 golems, and with the cost of players on the team that's unlikely. Unless the coach really sacrifices a lot of other positionals.

A couple games into a league as most other teams start picking it up, it starts to matter less anyway as they cancel each other out.

It's self limiting by the restrictions on the team.

Break tackle does little for them. It ignores what the position needs to be considered over zombies. 1 improved dodge on a MV 4 piece isn't that impressive when every other positional on the team is much faster.

[mattgslater]

I don't think guard is overpowered. You can only have 2 golems, and with the cost of players on the team that's unlikely. Unless the coach really sacrifices a lot of other positionals.

A couple games into a league as most other teams start picking it up, it starts to matter less anyway as they cancel each other out.

It's self limiting by the restrictions on the team.

Break tackle does little for them. It ignores what the position needs to be considered over zombies. 1 improved dodge on a MV 4 piece isn't that impressive when every other positional on the team is much faster.

I have to say I strongly disagree on all counts. Guard is an "A" skill. ST4 players without anti-skills should never start with "A" skills with proactive effects, let alone Guard, which I'd say no player should ever be allowed to start with anyway as a categorical kind of thing. Next we'll have horses marrying sheep in drive-through Vegas affairs.

Break Tackle on a Fleshie is a very solid "B" skill, esp. on defense. If you get the ball and have a Flesh Golem to hand, ta-da! Instant cage! Suddenly, the FG becomes a go-anywhere threat, who can't be knocked out of position, and becomes a true NFL-style blitzing DE (near impossible in Blood Bowl as is). No, it wouldn't be a skill you'd actually give the guy with an improvement roll, but that's the point. The goal isn't to give him the best skill (or even a good one): it's to give him a worthwhile, fluffy and novel bump without throwing his costing/balance out of whack.

[ngoike]

I have to say I strongly disagree on all counts. Guard is an "A" skill. ST4 players without anti-skills should never start with "A" skills with proactive effects, let alone Guard, which I'd say no player should ever be allowed to start with anyway as a categorical kind of thing. Next we'll have horses marrying sheep in drive-through Vegas affairs.

Break Tackle on a Fleshie is a very solid "B" skill, esp. on defense. If you get the ball and have a Flesh Golem to hand, ta-da! Instant cage! Suddenly, the FG becomes a go-anywhere threat, who can't be knocked out of position, and becomes a true NFL-style blitzing DE (near impossible in Blood Bowl as is). No, it wouldn't be a skill you'd actually give the guy with an improvement roll, but that's the point. The goal isn't to give him the best skill (or even a good one): it's to give him a worthwhile, fluffy and novel bump without throwing his costing/balance out of whack.

I agree guard is an A skill, that's the point. If you go back a couple pages where I point out how golems are priced as some of the most expensive upgraded lineman positionals, part of why they get avoided is that a bunch of B and C skills don't add up. Especially when their best skill (regen) comes on the 40k linemen. Mighty Blow and Block are also A skills, and other positionals get to start with them.

With Break Tackle a blitzing DE? I agree with your analogy but the last thing Necromantic needs is another positional fighting for the single blitz action you get every turn. Wolves and Wights both act as blitzers, adding golems to that list does nothing to help them.

[mattgslater]

I agree guard is an A skill, that's the point. If you go back a couple pages where I point out how golems are priced as some of the most expensive upgraded lineman positionals, part of why they get avoided is that a bunch of B and C skills don't add up. Especially when their best skill (regen) comes on the 40k linemen. Mighty Blow and Block are also A skills, and other positionals get to start with them.

MB is a good skill, but it's really a B+: you wouldn't normally give it to a non-Block player as a first selection (like you might with Dodge or Guard), but it is a pretty solid skill and gets taken a lot as an early selection. What I'm saying, and I've heard the same from a lot of others, is that there is a general rule that ST4 players shouldn't start with Block, Dodge or Guard, and that ST3, 5 or anything else players shouldn't start with Guard. If the only way to fix a team is to provide a precedent for violating that principle, well, the solution is to live with a busted team. Fortunately, that's never the situation.

With Break Tackle a blitzing DE? I agree with your analogy but the last thing Necromantic needs is another positional fighting for the single blitz action you get every turn. Wolves and Wights both act as blitzers, adding golems to that list does nothing to help them.

Oops. Sorry. Football talk. By "blitzing," in this context I mean "providing support on the line and then running up to provide an assist for the Blitz in the backfield next turn if not pinned down strategically," rather than "the recipient of the team's Blitz action." The actual Blitz action would probably go to a Were or Wight if possible. BT and Stand Firm makes it possible for the player to go wherever he wants to go and stay there. Like Pro Elves: the Catchers do you in, but it's the Blitzers who stop you from stopping them from doing you in that really does you in, you know?

Alternative: Mighty Blow in lieu of Thick Skull, at 110k? That would make starting them very tempting. After all, it makes sense that a FG hits harder than a BOB/BC/CW/Saurus/Vamp. Normally, MB to start is reserved for ST5, but this is pretty close.

[ngoike]

I get the fear of guard, I just think this is a place where it may not be out of hand due to how expensive everything else costs. It would be difficult to exploit it when you still need the other positions and rerolls. It may be possible, I just don't dismiss it out of hand. Mighty Blow would be a massive improvement as well.

I'm not really trying to make the team a massive powerhouse either. I just think a lot of coaches don't see enough benefit out of the golems at the moment. If wolves still had catch, i think it would have been interesting to consider making golems into throwers. It's always bugged me all the undead teams follow the bashing style, especially since thro-ras don't really throw the ball.

[Darkson]

If I remember my "build a player" rules, Guard as a starting skill is a big no-no, the same as no Block on a ST 4 player.
So wheter Guard is fluffy or not, or wheter it's overpowered or not, I think that any discussion that uses that has zero chance of even being thought of by the BBRC.

[mattgslater]

Darkson just captured what I was trying to say.

Am I missing anything from the options we've covered so far?

A) -10k base price
B) MA5, AG1
C) Break Tackle
D) Guard
E) Mighty Blow
F) C, D or E, -10k base price, no Thick Skull
G) 60k re-rolls
H) Un-nerf (or partially un-nerf) Stand Firm
I) M access on doubles

Missing anything?

[Marlow]

Missing anything?

I think that covers all the options discussed.

Can not see Stand Firm getting its protection from Turn over on Dodges back, and you can not really make the Golem any cheaper given the stats/skills they have. I also do not think Guard is a good idea as it is too powerful as a starting skill.

[Digger Goreman]

Missing anything?

I think that covers all the options discussed.

Can not see Stand Firm getting its protection from Turn over on Dodges back, and you can not really make the Golem any cheaper given the stats/skills they have. I also do not think Guard is a good idea as it is too powerful as a starting skill.

Like Block and/or Dodge....

BTW: Played "Little Big Guy" per my above post... NOT an option imo.... Too easy to contain the Golem.... Golems work best AT LEAST in pairs....

[mattgslater]

My take:

The best options, in descending order of coolness:
H) Partially un-nerf Stand Firm (find a happy medium) -- Stand Firm is underpowered compared to Side Step as is: even though it's quite viable as a non-doubles selection, I think it should be closer to the top of Tier 2 than it is.
G) 60k re-rolls -- The little bit of extra cash makes a big difference with starting player quality decisions. Also, it's a roundabout way of dealing with a problem... sort of an act of game-dedign judo.
C) Break Tackle @ 110k -- Simple, effective, makes a scary good on-paper deal, though. That's kind of cool, though: the Necro have these two freaky expensive and very-good-lookin' positionals who kind of underperform the obvious expectations on them (even if they are quite cool), and these two mid-range bread-and-butter types who are really quite unimpressive on paper but really take on a big share of the load. I like that.
A) 100k base price -- Ditto.
F) Break Tackle, 100k base price, no Thick Skull -- Ditto again.

The ones I'd live with:
E) Mighty Blow -- Too much as-is, but ok w/ a nerf. Take out Thick Skull, and it's ok I guess.
B) MA5, AG1 -- Does the job, no major overpower, but not very fluffy. Golems are slow.
I) M access on doubles -- Really cool, sounds fun, doesn't help.

The ones I really don't like
D) Guard -- Violates directive from on-high (I'm talking about Nuffle, not Jervis).
F) MB, -10k base price, no Thick Skull -- Too much.
H) Un-nerf Stand Firm -- Too much.

Oooh...

You know how you can toggle a little value (less than 10k) on this kind of guy by adding/removing Thick Skull? I think you might be able to have the same effect going the other way by replacing Thick Skull with AV10. That way, you can introduce a big fat power mechanic (AV10) in a way that doesn't really become unbalancing (yeah, he's really tough. He's so tough that he saves a lot of wear and tear on ... um ... those ... um ... Zombies ... <sigh> never mind).

Sometimes a little fix that can't cut it alone is better than one that goes too far. The question is: what to mix it with?

You could also make a bigger fix work by making him MA3. MA3 and AG2 just sounds so frivolous a way to spend the value of an AG point that you can recoup the value of an added GOOD skill (MB) without changing the equation. Just sayin'.

None of that sounds better than the ones at the top of the list to me, though.