First skill double on a Beastman

kithor2002 · Post by **kithor2002** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 8:51 am

Dodge would be my favorite.

But if you want to create a killing machine choose Jump up. For the next skills give him Mighty Blow and Piling on......

Kheldar · Post by **Kheldar** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 9:09 am

I would go the leap route. You wont ever give a player vll first, and then wait for him getting a double, so he can get leap.

A leaper will get a lot of pressure on your opponent, if if not used. But there is the potential tghat it could happen. And 4+ with RR are still 75% not to shaby.

forgot the following. I would not go BH later on, but wrestle and strip ball. Give BH to another Beastman paired with Sure Hands. He can then get the ball your leaper popped loose.

Warpstone · Post by **Warpstone** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 5:46 pm

Choose Dodge hands down, and I'm saying that even though I'm a big fan of horny leapers...

When your other beastmen get a bit more developed with basic blocking combos (i.e. more Block+Guard or Block+Might Blow), then by all means go for a Leap->Big Hand->Very Long Legs player if you get the chance (just don't expect him to live very long--actually, he'll be even more useful as intimidation).

Cramy · Post by **Cramy** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 6:52 pm

Not sure if I'd go dodge or leap. But don't underestimate the fear factor that leap provides. Couple that with VLL or Strip Ball or Big Hand, etc... and he forces your opponent to play a bit differently.

Aliboon · Post by **Aliboon** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 7:27 pm

I'd go leap, although you're a bashy team, there may be times when brute force alone won't break your opo's cage and I can't think of many better cage breakers than a horned leaper with VLL, wrestle, strip ball and juggernaught if you ever get that far...

stashman · Post by **stashman** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 7:59 pm

A team CAN ALWAYS aford a "diffrent" type of player in the teamplay style.

LEAP

then Very Long Legs

then Wrestle, Strip Ball (an easy way to get the ball)

or Juggernaut, Frenzy (a way to push the ballcarrier out of cage!)

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 8:03 pm

If you're looking to develop an alternative to a straight-up bash game, go Pass, then Big Hand. If he gets doubles again, get Nerves of Steel.

75% isn't 75% when it comes to a 4+ Leap, because you're almost always making other rolls. If your opponent has the ball and you have to leap to get to it, you're making a 4+, 5+, 6+, whatever check to pick it up, then at best a 3+ to get away (maybe worse)... and that's assuming you don't have to pass to keep it clear or blitz to make it happen! You probably need the RR for at least one of those rolls. Even with VLL and a TRR, it's tricky play that will get punished more often than rewarded.

Stuff that lets you do something you couldn't otherwise do is only good if it won't probably fail. Side Step. Now, that lets you do something you couldn't otherwise do, and it usually works. Dodge doesn't try to let you do new things, but it makes tricky combo maneuvers conscionable by reducing wear on your TRR track. Pass lets you get around dodges and pull out a 3-turner when you need it. All of those combine well with access skills, both bread-and-butter skills (Side Step + Guard, Dodge + Block, Pass + Big Hand) and boutique stuff (Side Step + Prehensile Tail, Dodge + Two Heads, Pass + Strong Arm).

If you really want a skill you have to grow into, then don't be predictable and take Leap. Make a statement about your team and grab Nerves of Steel, then take Big Hand or Extra Arms next. THEN, if he gets doubles again, get Leap. Not any better or worse, and it's the road most wouldn't take.

Jural · Post by **Jural** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 11:18 pm

I'd go dodge.

Side step is tempting as a pair with guard, a counter to a later frenzy pick-up, or just to annoy others. But with Stand Firm doing some of the same things, I'd not waste a doubles toll on Side Step unless the player already had Dodge or Block or Guard.

Leap is also interesting, just for the fear factor.

But here's the thing- Chaos needs the base of skills other teams get first. Build up some block, guard, build up 2 sure hands players, build up the mighty blow and claw and piling on players. If you don't have those players, it doesn't matter if you have leap! You;ll be getting pushed around the pitch or avoided like crazy.

I tend to play it fairly close to the belt with Chaos with a young team, and then start developing "interesting" passers and specialty players later. I'd classify the leaper as an "interesting" player, and only pick him up later.

For teams like Dark Elves and humans and orcs and dwarves, I develop interesting players earlier. If the base of skills is there, you can get cute. Otherwise, you will just have some interesting pieces and a bunch of losses.

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Sat Jan 05, 2008 12:05 am

I think Jural's right about the bread-and-butter-first approach. However, I think developing a passer with a Chaos game IS a bread-and-butter aspect. Once you've got a guy with Pass and SH or BH, you've got a credible passing game in the manner of Orcs. He takes awhile to improve because he has to buy those passer skills with skill-ups, but with both Strong Arm and M access, you never run out of passing-improvement options for him, and he adds a serious dimension to the game. If you have to run the cage every time, you're going to get beat by mash teams like Orcs and Dwarfs, which are very hard to run on. You've got some of the best MA/AG combos of any hard-hitting strength team: make something of it! Just don't forget that you're still a masher and make sure to build yourself nothing more than the SEEDS of a pass game so you can turn in quick scores when the situation warrants.

Leap is an early selection on a late player to skill-up. You're not ready to build that guy yet.

Digger Goreman · Post by **Digger Goreman** » Sat Jan 05, 2008 12:20 am

I think it was Datalorex (and maybe others) who spoke the wisdom of selecting "Strip Ball": It's a zero-sum skill choice.... Other teams will simply select "Sure Hands" to nullify it (if they don't have it already)....

Jural · Post by **Jural** » Sat Jan 05, 2008 5:19 am

Digger Goreman wrote:I think it was Datalorex (and maybe others) who spoke the wisdom of selecting "Strip Ball": It's a zero-sum skill choice.... Other teams will simply select "Sure Hands" to nullify it (if they don't have it already)....

Sure hands is just too much of a no brainer... some teams start with it, other teams need it to stop the freakin' turnovers! So it's very rare to play a team without it (even teams like lizzies who need doubles will have 2 or 3 of these players.)

The only teams who tend to avoid the skill are elves, so I have found it useful in some elf heavy leagues. Also, it makes a great skill on a mercenary blitzer or wardancer if the other team is really unprepared.

Post by **DoubleSkulls** » Sat Jan 05, 2008 7:16 am

Digger Goreman wrote:I think it was Datalorex (and maybe others) who spoke the wisdom of selecting "Strip Ball": It's a zero-sum skill choice.... Other teams will simply select "Sure Hands" to nullify it (if they don't have it already)....

The nice thing about having strip ball in your team is that it tends to force your opponent to keep the ball with his sure hands players - he can't even risk a 1/2 dice block on a non-sure hands player.

And if it forces your opponents to take sure hands when they wouldn't have otherwise have done isn't that a good thing in itself?

Da_Great_MC · Post by **Da_Great_MC** » Sat Jan 05, 2008 10:54 am

I'd also try and develop a Thrower. Give Pass or Accurate. Next skills should be Sure Hands and Extra Arms. Fourth skill - if you ever reach 51 spp's - Strong Arm.

Jural · Post by **Jural** » Sun Jan 06, 2008 8:00 am

ianwilliams wrote: And if it forces your opponents to take sure hands when they wouldn't have otherwise have done isn't that a good thing in itself?

That's a good argument for Dodge and Tackle... but I don't understand it for Sure Hands. Who is avoiding Sure Hands? Some teams start with it, and many teams need it to be competitive (Chaos Dwarves and Undead being my favorite example.)

Maybe it's out local leagues, but Sure Hands seems to crop up in droves (3+ per team) no matter if a single Strip Ball player exists or not. (Elves excepted.)

Storch · Post by **Storch** » Sun Jan 06, 2008 8:05 am

Well, a bit of an update.

After much deliberation, I decided to go with Leap. I think it just fits my style more. Maybe next season I will develop a team that can really pass, but for now, going the pass route seems like sinking a lot of skills into something I am not very good at.

I figure if I keep him back a bit my leaper will quickly develop into a primo "must score" player as well as a pretty good blitzer for cracking open cages.

So as of right now the team looks like this:

Mino w/ claws
2x CW w/Block
CW w/Dodge
CW w/Block, Dodge
2x BM w/Block
2xBM w/Bock, Mighty Blow (one lost a point of AV)
3xBM w/Guard
1 BM w/Leap
1 BM w/absolutely nothing at all (can't get a SPP on him no matter what I do)

The plan right now is to give the CW with Dodge Block just as soon as he can score a TD to get the SPPs he needs. The two CWs with Block will be getting Guard next barring some incredible rolling. The 2 BMs with Block are going to be ball carriers, getting Sure Hands and Extra Arms next. It's a pretty bashy league, so I wanted to get them Block first though I still loathe trying to pick up the ball (for some reason my dice love ones and twos when it comes to pick up rolls). The Guard BMs will get block and the Leaper is getting Very Long Legs as soon as possible.

Thanks again for all your help on this. I really think the team is coming together nicely.