Piling on, Idea

Asperon Thorn · Post by **Asperon Thorn** » Wed Dec 04, 2002 5:25 am

There is a sentiment that Piling on is a bit too powerful. Until recently I didn't think it was, but then someone mentioned a Khemri team with all 4 mummies getting piling on. My face paled at the thought of what that would do to my Dark Elves. (3+ to break armor 4 TIMES!!!)

Of course, I generally hate jumping on the nerf wagon but I thought of a possible solution and wanted some opinions.

Wouldn't Piling on make more sense as a foul action?

It still works the same way, but it could only be used once per turn and counted as the turns foul action. Also, there is a chance that the REF will throw out the player. (Call it unnecessary roughness. Even in American Football, you aren't allowed to just pile on to a player. There are Dogpiles, but that is only when there is a loose ball. Any "piling" on a player will get you ejected, unless it is very near the play.)

Just thought I would throw that out there

Mekanik Kommandoh · Post by **Mekanik Kommandoh** » Wed Dec 04, 2002 6:39 am

Someone in this forum had a signature: "Quit whining and start playing". More than ever it applies here.

Grumbledook · Post by **Grumbledook** » Wed Dec 04, 2002 7:11 am

Take block and dodge on your elves and stay away from them, you should be avoiding going toe to toe with mummies anyway. Personally I wouldn't want all my mummies on the floor anyway.

Relborn · Post by **Relborn** » Wed Dec 04, 2002 7:56 am

IMO Piling on should be an fouling action, and that's the way we houseruled it. This limits the POs per round and bring the action back where it logically belongs ... but well, that's just my opinion ...

Mestari · Post by **Mestari** » Wed Dec 04, 2002 1:07 pm

Mekanik Kommandoh wrote:Someone in this forum had a signature: "Quit whining and start playing". More than ever it applies here.

I thought your league only allows one player with Guard at a time on the pitch, Mek. Kommandoh. If someone in your league decided to excessively use POn (as may have been the case with Guard at some point?) then I'd guess that you'd quickly start searching for an alternative POn ruling.

Piling On = foul action seems like an elegant solution to the problem. After all, it'd still be more effective than fouling, as you can decide after the AV roll whether you want to risk the penalty roll.

Mestari · Post by **Mestari** » Wed Dec 04, 2002 1:12 pm

And to answer the concerns whether there is a problem:

ST5 player breaks AV9 on 5+ on2d6, i.e. 2+ on 1d6. Lower AV's get broken even more easily. So this is not a problem that only elves face.

And due to the fact that fouling has been brought down, the risk caused by downing the POn player is no longer big enough to stop people from piling on.
Currently POn with high ST players is in essence a free mass foul without any chances of getting caught.

EDIT: Fortunately (and this is why the problem hasn't yet been too blatantly visible) no official team can readily employ such a tremendous squad of POn'rs as the Khemri. The fact that they can easily form a four-mummy death squad will probably make the problem evident for pretty much everyone.

Grumbledook · Post by **Grumbledook** » Wed Dec 04, 2002 1:14 pm

I think you underestimate the effect of putting your player down for a turn, practically wastes the next turn and also leaves you for a foul.

sean newboy · Post by **sean newboy** » Wed Dec 04, 2002 1:31 pm

Yes and only 1 of those mummies will foul next turn, and then only on a gfi. Not to mention like treemen they can be out maneuvered. I voted no.

Relborn · Post by **Relborn** » Wed Dec 04, 2002 1:41 pm

I don't think that putting the player down balances the advantage from the piling on effect.

With piling on you can target an opposing player and force a very-high-chance-injury. Admitted not every armor break is an casuality, but an team with 3 or 4 piling on players could wreak quite a havoc over the opposition.

Calculating that your player breaks the AV value of the opposing player, you aren't even in a numeric disadvantage (as the opponent is at least stunned).

Sure Piling on Goblins, won't inspire that much fear ....

sean newboy · Post by **sean newboy** » Wed Dec 04, 2002 1:58 pm

Just because one team is so powerful with this skill does not make the skill unbalanced.

Post by **DoubleSkulls** » Wed Dec 04, 2002 2:38 pm

I voted yes. PO is, IMO, over powerful when used after the Av roll.

For a S4 player (Saurus, BOB) against Av 8 they wont be going down that often. On a 2,3 or 4 they don't go down, as they can't get through, and on a 9+ they don't go down as they don't need to. That's 44% of the time they stay on there feet - when otherwise they'd go down every time and have a 1/6 chance of doing so to no effect.

On top of that none of the other injury skills have got better, and some have got a lot worse can no longer stack Pro to increase casualties, MB is worse, Claw and RSF have more competition to be taken (as traits now compete for the double) and DP has got worse too. PO is the only injury skill that has got better.

I don't actually have much problem with the +S to Av. As it was PO was a nicely balanced skill but now has been tipped over the edge.

Khrys_Antos · Post by **Khrys_Antos** » Wed Dec 04, 2002 3:21 pm

Piling On on a mummy is no big deal, they cant take Razor Sharp Claws.

Picture a Rat Ogre with Block, Piling On, Mighty Blow, Prehensile Tail, Tackle and Razor Sharp Claws. Kills/seriously injures LOS players every drive. With a Rat Ogres movement, he can blitz right after. And this from a player who uses him poorly.

Piling On should be returned to what it was previously, you had to call it before the block. That way there was always a small chance that he'd go down for no reason. With fouling weakened nowadays its much harder to take him out.

Piling On+Razor sharp claws: Too powerful.
Just piling on: No problem.

Relborn · Post by **Relborn** » Wed Dec 04, 2002 3:46 pm

Okay, for the records, we never used that silly rule where you decide after the dice-roll wether to use an skill or not.

For piling on, I think a 83,3% AV-breaking chance on an average AV of 8 is quite high, when you keep in mind that such attacks could be started from several players.

I wouldn't necessarily make this skill weaker, but we have had good experiences with allowing this skill only with an foul action (but that's just our houserule)

Skummy · Post by **Skummy** » Wed Dec 04, 2002 3:56 pm

It is a very high chance, and it really messes up 7 armor teams. Multiple Mummies with PO are much better than a RO with the same skill, if only becasue they are not Wild Animals and they can reroll. In addition, you can give the Mummy PO on his first skill without too much fear. Most coaches I know would not do this with a WA.

Post by **DoubleSkulls** » Wed Dec 04, 2002 3:57 pm

Khrys_Antos wrote:Picture a Rat Ogre with Block, Piling On, Mighty Blow, Prehensile Tail, Tackle and Razor Sharp Claws.

Picture a big steel tipped boot whacked in its face every time it goes down.

Every coach is going to make this the #1 target in a team and by the time the RO gets there, there are going to be plenty of Dirty Players around.

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