Development of Trolls

[Marlow]

So as a continuation of my first post what are peoples thought on stat increases?

Strength: - Str 6 Troll is nice, Str 5 Troll with Bock is better.
Agility: - AG 2 is not going to help; so take a skill!
Armour: AV 10 seems a better choice than Thick Skull
Move: Would move 5 help in any real way? Skills more so I expect.

[tenwit]

I rather embarassingly know them by heart.

I used to have a spare life that you have used, Joe. I guess you'll have to continue to do without for now, eh?

[mattgslater]

On an Orc team, I'd always take +ST on a 12, because the Troll's job on D is to jam the line, not to throw blocks, and on offense it's easy to get one assist for 3d which is about as good as 2d/Block, and better against opponents w/Block. With a Troll on a Goblin team, I don't have any advice on +ST vs. Block. I'd always take a skill over anything else, either way.

[mattgslater]

Armour: AV 10 seems a better choice than Thick Skull

NEVER SPEND AN IMPROVEMENT ON THICK SKULL. If you've got it to start, great: think of it as a cool free bonus with no actual transactional value. Thick Skull reduces your chances of being taken off the field by 1/3, but does not reduce your chance of being taken out of the play. That's of minimal value, if you ask me.

[Joemanji]

Agreed, Thick Skull is pointless.

Strength: - Str 6 Troll is nice, Str 5 Troll with Bock is better.
Agility: - AG 2 is not going to help; so take a skill!
Armour: AV 10 seems a better choice than Thick Skull
Move: Would move 5 help in any real way? Skills more so I expect.

AV 10 is nice but not amazing. If you roll 5,5 always take the doubles skill. MA is pretty meh, nice but you can't rely on it so the AV is better as it has a passive use. Keeping your trolls on the pitch is vital.

ST 6 isn't something to disgard without thinking, especially if the player has Guard already. He is a great bulkhead. However, Block costs 20K less so it may win out as the better choice on many teams.

[fen]

Basing from the two potential templates I use, this is how I evaluate the stat increases.

1: Break Tackle, Strong Arm, Guard, Grab
12: +ST - Take, being able to improve Break Tackle is fantastic, it also means you only need one assist to roll 3D vs ST3. It just edges out Block due to the added utility when combined with Break Tackle.
11: +AG - Skip - take a skill
10: +MA or a skill. Always use the doubles on 5+5. +AV is a waste of 10K (diminishing returns between each step of +AV means it's too harsh between 9 and 10 imo).

2: Grab, Multi-Block, Guard, Stand Firm
12 - +ST or Block, a tough call this one. Definately Block if other troll (by some fudge) has managed to also get a +ST. Block probably edges it as it helps Multi-Block (I'd rather roll 2x2D Blocks with Block than 2x3D without)
11 - +AG - Skip, normal skill please Bob.
10 - Skill or Doubles - +MA is tempting, but this guy should always have targets in range. Doubles would be Block then Tackle in that order. Might go +AV on this guy in a bashy league as he'll always be in the thick of it.

[bouf]

I havent really read more than a Skim of the article so I'm sorry if this has already been suggested... (I'm just throwing in my two cents while at work...)

But Grab is a Magic skill for Goblins.

Why you ask? Fanatics roll for AV against Prone opponents... So you use your Troll to Grab some dork and toss him closer to the fanatic, (or Multi Toss if you're game!) Then fire up the other troll for another...

Send in the Fanatic and Whail on the Prone players... If there are a few more still clustered in there, BOMBS AWAY!

[DoubleSkulls]

For the normal skills...

Guard a first skill on both. Guard is great because it means you can assist those gobbos a bit more to compensate for them being too weak... it also makes 3 dice easier for the other troll or fanatic.

Break Tackle.. being able to dodge to get to the gobbo to toss is vital. 2nd skill on one or both.

Stand Firm is always annoying to play against. I'd take it 2nd/3rd

Multiple block... nice for the first hit when receiving (so trolls can hit everyone on the line and you don't need a fanatic or gobbo to hit the 3rd target).

Grab.. sounds like I should try it.

Juggernaut.. not early on. My trolls aren't blitzing too much.

Strong Arm... I try not to throw at lot so I don't care so much about improving that aspect of the game.

Piling On ... very late (i.e never) you need the trolls on their feet protecting goblins from getting hit

Doubles...its block with pro the only competition.

Block obvious for the massively reduced turnover rate and more damage capabilities. 2 dice with block is more reliable than 3 dice.

Pro - is better than pass for the throwing game and means you are better at completing your block actions than with block.

I can't see a strong case for not always taking block first and pro second. If you are lucky enough for a third then Frenzy or Tackle.

6,4 - for me +MA is I feel more useful than another skill. Being able to keep up with the gobbos is vital if you get the rolling scrum going. If its the 1st skill roll I'll probably pass it over for guard.

5,5 - a double

6,5 - a skill

6,6 - always the strength. S6 makes so many things more fun (like multiple block, more 3 dice blocking, harder for opposition BGs etc).

[tenwit]

Can you reconcile these statements for me?

Block obvious for the massively reduced turnover rate and more damage capabilities. 2 dice with block is more reliable than 3 dice.
...
6,6 - always the strength. S6 makes so many things more fun (like multiple block, more 3 dice blocking, harder for opposition BGs etc).

The first one says that if 6,6 is your first roll, take block. The second one says that if 6,6 is any roll, take ST.

Me fink me confused.

[Digger Goreman]

Not that I would ever want to speak for Ian (unless it comes with a hefty stipend ), but I believe the first statement is contingent on a normal skill roll (less than 10 and not doubles) while the latter comments are strictly for boxcars... (6+6)....

[tenwit]

I would have thought that's what was intended, and it's my opinion too, but he did say that
1) S6 is fun and helps get 3d blocks, and
2) 2d + Block is safer than 3d - Block.

Which suggests that Ian thinks that 6+6 -> Block is the more sensible, less fun option. I'd like to get that verified, as I've been labouring under the impression that +ST is both more fun and more sensible.

[Digger Goreman]

Could be both.... Block would be more sensible and statistically better on a 6+6, but how many times you gonna roll 12?

[tenwit]

but how many times you gonna roll 12?

In my experience, about twice as often as (1,1), (2,2), (3,3) and (4,4) combined. In fact, only 11 is rolled more often than 12.

Grrr arrrgh difficult choices...

[DDogwood]

For +ST vs. Block, I would say to take a look at the rest of your league. If there are lots of Big Guys or Mummies out there, ST6 will be tremendously valuable. If Undead and Khemri teams are really rare, and most players don't bother using Big Guys, then Block is probably a better choice.

I'd say that +ST is a better choice 90% of the time.

[tenwit]

I bothered to do the maths. If all you want is to avoid a turnover, 2D+Block is a 2.8% chance of turnover, 3D-Block is a 3.7% chance. Not worth worrying about IMO.

If you're thinking of receiving blocks rather than making them (and most of the time, with really stupid players, that's a fair call), then all Block does is require your opponent to use X players, one of whom will have Block. The extra ST requires him to tie up X+1 players, though now that Block player might go elsewhere.

I suppose I'd prefer to tie up more of his players, and the ST6-no-Block big guy is more likely to do that. In fact, the ST5+Block big guy is more likely to simply be avoided, and that defeats his purpose. He's there to give your other players more room to move. Making him a bigger target that isn't too difficult to take down helps with that.

In summary: take Block if keeping him alive is most important. Take ST if having him be an effective field-clearer is most important.