Piling on, Idea

[franck_le_grand]

Imagine a whole front line with: tackle, diving tackle, and block!!!
It's the same picture and you wouldn't start crying when facing the team. Come on PO is no big deal, MB is even more better:

You don't lay prone afterwards.
You get +1 to AV or the inj.
You can use it when another guy hits you!

So no PO is not too negative.

BTW I got this questing knight on my Bretonian team (house rules):
9 4 3 9 stand firm, block, leader, mighty blow, tackle, and PO!!
He's a killing machine!... and he's not going to live long

[Zergo]

It seems to me that PO is not an unbalanced skill. If you have say, 4 mummies that use it in one turn, that's 4 mummies that don't do anything for the next turn. That includes throwing blocks, but also creating tackle zones. I don't know many coaches that would voluntarily take out more than 25% of thier men in one turn.

Plus, what is an AG team doing lined up against 4 mummies? They're supposed to be big hitters, so your job is to avoid them! That shouldn't be too hard when they've got Mv of 3, particularly if you're playing WElves or something similar.

The bottom line is that Strength skills are obviously better for stronger players. A Mummy with Sure Hands and Pass still isn't much of a threat, but a Welf is. Skills, selected appropriately, are designed to complement the strength of a player. Am I wrong here?

[Asperon Thorn]

I never once considered that a good coach was, or even could drop all 4 players at the same time. The scenario that struck fear in me was having two drop every turn and two standing over them. The two standing could prevent fouling or to Pile on the next turn.

what is an AG team doing lined up against 4 mummies?

Well, everytime an AG team scores (every 2 to 3 turns) 3 elves must be placed on the LOS. That is potentially 3 players that will be piled on at the beginning of the drive.

The Khemri team that I originally mentioned, I believe, was in an attemt to prove that it is overpowered, since technically, it is still an experimental team. Personnally I don't believe the team is overpowered, if a coach wants to have a team with 4 MA 3 players, then let them. But having three free Stuns (mid case scenario) or potentially worse, at the beginning of every drive, is a bit much IMO, which is why I began to think that PO is a bit overpowered.

The only purpose to PO is to hurt a player, or cause a casualty, as is fouling. That is why I think they should be grouped together. Blocking (and casualties as a result of) at least has the alternative purpose of pushing opposing players out of the way, or eliminating tacklezones in order to move the ball forward (and despite Orc and chaos interpretations of the game, I still believe that is the purpose.)

Asperon Thorn

[Mojoshenpo]

sounds damned good!

I'll vote YES!!

[Mekanik Kommandoh]

Someone in this forum had a signature: "Quit whining and start playing". More than ever it applies here.

I thought your league only allows one player with Guard at a time on the pitch, Mek. Kommandoh. If someone in your league decided to excessively use POn (as may have been the case with Guard at some point?) then I'd guess that you'd quickly start searching for an alternative POn ruling.

That's correct, our league allows only one player per team with guard skill on the pitch at a time. You can say the reason is excessive use, but the issue behind this house rule is speeding up the game. If one team starts to collect a full team of guards it somewhat forces other teams to follow. With four linemen guards per team blocking really slows down the game when you have to check whose got guard and can, or can't, assist. Of course you could mark the figures with tape or whatever, but we decided not to go there. At the moment none of the players in the league have guard skill, although they could, and I don't think this takes anything away from the game.

[Munkey]

How about Piling On being subject to a Penalty Roll in the same way as a foul as I think has been suggested on another thread.

With the IGMEOY rules I think this may be a bit much, so I would suggest that POn is not subject to the modifier and so players can only get sent off on a 6.

POn would still cause the ref to be watching you though.

The fluff for this is that POn is a (very ) dirty block and so is not allowed under the NAF rules, but as it is part of a block action it is a lot harder for a ref to spot and call

[Vitalis]

I really like the Piling On skill as it is.

If the general consensus is, the skill has to much damage potential, then how about changing the skill from being skill to trait?

This would also make killer combos á la frenzy, jump up, block, piling on much more unlikely.

[Munkey]

This would also make killer combos á la frenzy, jump up, block, piling on much more unlikely.

I didn't think the problem was with killer combo's as much as with multiple high strength players (read mummies ) who all have POn.

I agree that changing the skill to a trait would limit the amount of players running around with it though although it does not really fit the fluff of being a trait.

[Mestari]

My take is:

either a foul action
or
simply attach a penalty roll to it.

[Relborn]

I agree with Munkey and Mestari. From the story around the game piling on ever was a foul action. That and the brute force that lies behind this skill (when used from high strenght blockers) brought us to our houserule.

[Tamper Magnitude]

Easy solutions:-

1) Foul them!! When they go down stick the boot in, use a DP or some linechaff.

2) stay away from them! When they go down, move players away, then they can only get one per turn.

3) Take advantage of the fact that 1,2,3 or even 4 of their players are down, thats gotta give you a big gap to exploit, especially with an elf or skaven team.

4) Use block and dodge to lessen the chance of them knocking players over.

5) Make like an orc team and hit them before they hit you!


The problem as I see it is your intimidated by what COULD happen rather than what will. Your gonna have lost before youve started if you worry about it too much, if you lose a couple of players so what, it's a violent game!
I prefer to play a hitting + fighting game but I am not an advocate of taking Piling On, I prefer my players to remain upright, particularly if they have low Mv, or the opposition have DP's.

[DoubleSkulls]

IMO Piling On is only broken if you decide to pile on after the Av roll is made. Otherwise its fine. I have no problem with mummies lying on the ground just to get through armour - there is a trade off between strategic advantage and tactical disadvantage. However when there is no risk - i.e. you know you had to pile on to break armour - then its a real no brainer and a bit too much when everything else has gone wrong.

4 PO Mummies would be a complete nightmare to play against, but 4 Mummies are a pretty bad nightmare anyway.

Fouling PO's isn't that viable a tactic. If he's sensible your opponent wont foul back, so that restricts you to 1 foul per half. Or he may be trying to get you into a fouling war so he can use his DP's too.

Your best bet is either to stay away from them or ensure that if he does pile on you can exploit the hole in the line.

[Mestari]

Easy solutions:-
The problem as I see it is your intimidated by what COULD happen rather than what will. Your gonna have lost before youve started if you worry about it too much, if you lose a couple of players so what, it's a violent game!
I prefer to play a hitting + fighting game but I am not an advocate of taking Piling On, I prefer my players to remain upright, particularly if they have low Mv, or the opposition have DP's.

The problem with your solutions are:

1) - the risk-reward ratio of fouling, if the other coach plays IGMEOY right, is far from tempting. He gets the same rewards without the risk with PO.
2) Works for elves and the like, agreed, but not for other teams. The fact that av9 is like paper against them indicates the problem.
3) A good coach plays their POn'rs so that there's little to exploit when they're down.
4) Not every player has them, and the POn players usually do get at least 2 dice, so the odds are working for them
5) Statistically speaking, against for example 4 POn mummies, you will lose the war of attrition, they simply have too good odds of causing havoc.

I've played three games against pretty undeveloped Khemri teams , with dwarves. I won all of the games, but those games did hurt my TR.
If an AV9 longbeard is at least stunned almost every time he gets blocked, it's a sign of a problem.

Ian: having the decision in advance could be one solution, but IIRC the BBRC has been rather reluctant to remove this "streamlining" from the rules. Still, I like the implications that the foul-action or penalty roll have - the fact that there is a clear possibility for being penalised for using a +3/+4/+5 to the armour roll.

[Tamper Magnitude]

I think it's a symptom of reducing the effect of fouling, if you werent using the IGMEOY rules it would be far less of an advantage to use PON. It's not an obvious unbalancing effect but it would appear to be there.

I was going to say "4 Mummies!! bit your only allowed 2!!", until i realised that it must be the new Khemri team is allowed 4, right?


I think the best suggestion so far is the sent off on a 6 idea. especially as it move the Ref's eye onto the POn team, setting up the prone player for a foul. I'd still rather take mighty blow though

[Asperon Thorn]

The problem as I see it is your intimidated by what COULD happen rather than what will.

I regrettably admit that this is the case. I have not played against such a potentially devestating team, but that is the reason that I posted it on the forum. I had hoped someone would easily dismiss my fears. Which Is why I will attempt to refute some of your solutions.

I'd still rather take mighty blow though

Mummies already start with Mighty Blow, unless Khemri teams have different mummies. I am not sure, but I think after the PO block, they get to use MB on the injury roll. So not only is there a 3+, 4+ to break armor, there is also an injury modifier.

2) stay away from them! When they go down, move players away, then they can only get one per turn.

This doesn't solve the problem of putting 3 on the line, after every touchdown. Holding on to the ball too long also has its dangers, Mummies deployed well, or marched around the field well, are sure to get a blitz and a possible block if you do.