Development of Trolls

[mattgslater]

NoS just isn't worth it. NoS excels when you want to run multiple receivers down field in the expectation one will get marked and the other blitzed. NoS means they have to blitz the NoS one. With gobbos that means you've got a dead gobbo - and if you are fielding more than 1 gobbo on a drive you are fielding too few Orcs. 4 BOBs, 1 Troll, 4 blitzers, 1 thrower = 1 spare spot.

Agreed on the one Goblin thing, but there's more than one way to use NOS. NOS is used on elves the way Ian describes, but I use it differently with a Goblin. For a Goblin, NOS is there because you can usually protect him from being blitzed at all, but you can't protect him from being covered with a TZ. So you make 'em blitz a Blitzer, and then if they can't keep all your Gobbo's dodge routes covered (even if they can keep a zone on him), you chuck the ball to him and he dodges free to score (Catch is better, but you've got doubles now and you can pick it as #2 for a VERY reliable boy). On an Orc team, I'd be very hesitant to give a Goblin Pro. He's already got Dodge, can get Catch and Sure Feet, and I'd want to have a full TRR available to try TTM. Pro is good for some players, but with a Gobbo, you usually can't afford to fail any rolls and will get much better odds with a dedicated skill (Catch) or TRR.

The Orc throwing game involves throwing to Blitzers... or any other AG3 MA6 player. You can have four Blitzers. A Goblin adds one more guy to the cage, and one more receiving threat if you protect him. He's very situational, and not part of the every-turn Orc game, but he makes a big difference vis-a-vis tempo control.

[DoubleSkulls]

Is NoS worth it compared to the other options? I don't think so.

[mattgslater]

Pro would be my second choice, and a reasonable first choice especially if you plan to hold him back from skilling again or don't think you've got a lot of games left to play. If you don't have a TRR, you can use Pro in effect on a failed 2/3 chance to get a 1/3 chance to save. But when would it be used?
* Maybe 1 of the next 3-5 Catch attempts (until he gets Catch). This guy gets about 2SPP per appearance on average, because you only field him as a pinch TD target, and if you have a RR to hand you'll save it for THAT roll anyway.
* Dodges against Tacklers (a fair sign of strategic failure), or once in a blue moon if you need to make 2-3 dodges (2 dodges happens once in awhile when you're Stunty, but if you need 3 you're probably not playing very Zen football).
* GFI sometimes. Pro is actually good for 2+ rolls, so here it's the next-best thing (but a big step down) to Sure Feet.
* Landing, if you're crazy enough to use Mr. Always Hungry Loner to throw a 70k (90k if you skill him again) AV7 Stunty player. I'd rather not have to.
* This guy will probably try to pick up or block sometime over his career. If you play a LOT of games, you might even do both, and you might even use Pro once doing it. Don't hold your breath (yeah, when the Halflings come to town, sic him on 'em, but not if the game's still in doubt).

So six uses: three (block, pick up, land) are rare enough to be inconsiderable, one (catch) gets obviated after three more successful efforts, one (dodge without Dodge RR) is uncommon, and one (GFI) is common. None of these are affected dramatically: the total chance of success increases by 7-9 percentage points (comparable to a RR at -2) on a roll that HAS to work, but only if you don't have/don't want to spend a TRR.

That's something. But frequently, it's necessary to burn a Blitz to knock a TZ off of him so he can catch. If NOS lets you blitz a hole open elsewhere and then throw to your Gobbo in a TZ, then that's a major benefit. Catch is better, yeah, 'cause usually you don't have a TRR late in the half when you field him, but really... on boxcars? That somehow seems an affront to Nuffle.

Guard would also be good to help your Blitzers block TZs off of him. That's probably as good as or better than NoS and a dodge most of the time... until your wimpy opponents complain that even the GOBLIN has Guard and it's cheesy and beardy and munchkinesque... boo hooo... not that any of that is your responsibility, but beating them with Nerves of Steel saves you the annoyance.

[Buggrit]

On the Troll +ST issue. Did anyone clock Buggrit's snow troll. He got +ST, then another 12. he chose block. 1 count luthor and 2 assists later he was toast. If he'd had +St it would have been difficult for any side to get a decent block on him. Similar thing for ST6 over ST5. it protects the player by making it so so difficult for opposition to get decent blocks on him. great for a team based around those two trolls.

Sob, poor Fluffy... looking back the second +ST would've made him a massive threat to everything, 2D blocks my favour from other big guys who'd need a minimum of 2 assists to get 1D and he'd get 3D blocks on everything and dodge almost everywhere on 2+ with Break Tackle!!

[stormmaster1]

On the Troll +ST issue. Did anyone clock Buggrit's snow troll. He got +ST, then another 12. he chose block. 1 count luthor and 2 assists later he was toast. If he'd had +St it would have been difficult for any side to get a decent block on him. Similar thing for ST6 over ST5. it protects the player by making it so so difficult for opposition to get decent blocks on him. great for a team based around those two trolls.

Sob, poor Fluffy... looking back the second +ST would've made him a massive threat to everything, 2D blocks my favour from other big guys who'd need a minimum of 2 assists to get 1D and he'd get 3D blocks on everything and dodge almost everywhere on 2+ with Break Tackle!!

But it's easy to get panicky over 1 in 9 blocks going bad.

[mattgslater]

Yeah. There was no way you could have known that would happen. Really, ST6, Block, AV8... it's in the realm of "Any Given Sunday," and safe to bet that if you smacked Count Luthor w/S7, you'd get double both-downs with the same result.

[landrover]

Terry Pratchett: "Million-to-one shots come up nine times out of ten."

[Digger Goreman]

Terry Pratchett: "Million-to-one shots come up nine times out of ten."

Ain't that the truth...! Two whole casualties caused against me in a 1.75 mill (each) game 'gainst Zons and one of them (a regular linewoman) killz my superstar Werewolf....

6+5
6+5
6+8
1 on regen

Owie....

That's BB!

[PubBowler]

Maybe your Orcs don't pass. Mine do, and it works GREAT. Now, they don't pass like Elves do. Ok. But the beauty of the Orc team is that you combine a spectacular cage offense with a mediocre short passing game that can get the ball into and out of the cage (an option the other bashy teams must envy, and a great part of what makes Humans and Dark Elves tick in fact, though admittedly both teams do that part better).

Neither Humans & Dark Elves are better than Orcs, why would I want to play more like them when it's less successful when performed with passing positionals or AG4 and harder for me to develop guys that would make it feasible?

But to reply seriously, Goblins have niche uses for an Orc side. The most popular is one turn scorer (Catch, Sure Feet & Sprint) but others: cheap mobile fouler (Sneaky Git (Dirty Player)) or thrown annoyance (Diving Tackle, Side Step, Jump Up).

Passing with Orcs is a low percentage play and on a team with a lot of AG3, one you shouldn't be building players to partake in.

IM(not so humble)O of course.

[mattgslater]

Neither Humans & Dark Elves are better than Orcs, why would I want to play more like them when it's less successful when performed with passing positionals or AG4 and harder for me to develop guys that would make it feasible?

But to reply seriously, Goblins have niche uses for an Orc side. The most popular is one turn scorer (Catch, Sure Feet & Sprint) but others: cheap mobile fouler (Sneaky Git (Dirty Player)) or thrown annoyance (Diving Tackle, Side Step, Jump Up).

Orcs have this game going that, say, Undead or Dwarfs don't.

On offense, the kickoff goes deep into the backfield. You run a Thrower over and pick up, caging the way you intended to upfield, as if the ball went where you wanted it to go. The next turn, the opponent has to decide whether to harrass your cage (and take a beating) or go after the ball and get caught out of position if it doesn't work. Then you move up, throw the ball to the other Thrower (in the cage), and grind up the field like any grindy team would. An Undead team, say, would have to run the ball all the way into the cage, or be highly likely to burn an RR on the pass while an Orc team's RR would be a "just in case" mechanism for the Catch roll.

While you're pounding the cage up the field, you're supporting it with pressure from both the line and a squad in the backfield. If at any point any Blitzer, whether part of the cage or not, is in scoring range, your other Thrower can pass or hand-off to him for the TD, while a Dwarf of Undead team would have to hand-off and so wouldn't do it with a guy who's not part of the cage. Most of the time, this isn't how you want to be doing it (a major diff w/regard to Humans and DEs), but on turn 3 or turns 8 (7 if you kicked), it's much better than the other alternative, which is generally not scoring. Another arrow in the quiver, baby!

By "One-Turn Scorer" do you mean "TTM target?" What's Sprint got to do with it? With TTM, he doesn't have to sprint. Without TTM, he's a two-turner with only one GFI, but has no one-turn potential regardless of what you do. I could see trying TTM on turn 8... if you trust your Thrower to get the ball to him in time. But I wouldn't do it for SPP, so I'd only try it if the alternative was a loss or tie (I mean, look up "low-percentage" in the dictionary and you get a nice description of this play).

[PubBowler]

By "One-Turn Scorer" do you mean "TTM target?" What's Sprint got to do with it? With TTM, he doesn't have to sprint. Without TTM, he's a two-turner with only one GFI, but has no one-turn potential regardless of what you do.

You can one turn TD with any team (even Dwarfs although I think you need a touchback to do it) but in this case I was referring to TTM plays.

And with TTM always being inaccurate, yes he often has to sprint.

[Grogmir]

And with TTM always being inaccurate, yes he often has to sprint.

Agreed! Defo a good skill to have on someone who's going for a 1TTD.

You can one turn TD with any team (even Dwarfs although I think you need a touchback to do it)

Erm, I've scored in two turns and that was difficult. Unless you get a Blitz result on Kick-Off table I don't know how they can score in 1 turn.

[Cramy]

Yes, the Orcs do have that going for them. Do not develop any of your players in the passing game direction, except maybe for your thrower after he has block (and maybe Kick-Off Return). But because the Orc team has built-in throwers, they have that passing option if they need it.

Now, don't go around throwing the ball all over the place. That's a recipe for disaster. But when you have to score quickly, or you have to get the ball in a cage before those War Dancers get to you, then it's an option. If you need to pass, you have a built-in reroll for the pass, so you can use your TRR for the catch. Dwarf and Undead teams need to give pass to a player (and undead need doubles for that), so they tend not to as it is not part of their development plan. Orcs get that without any additional development.

As for the TTM play, it is a turn 8 play to tie or win the game. It is pretty-much impossible to score in 1 turn with Orcs without TTM (I wouldn't even try myself), but TTM allows for that option. Thing is that it is a very risky play, and you want to keep the TRR for the landing roll, as you can't get any skills that give you a reroll for that. So a Goblin with Catch, Sure-Feet, Sprint is what you want. The Orc Thrower gets the ball and hands-off or passes to the Goblin. All these actions have built-in rerolls. The Troll tries to throw without going stupid, eating the goblin, or fumbling (you may need the reroll there, but hope that you don't). The throw is always inaccurate, so the Goblin may scatter backwards. The Sprint / Sure-Feet combo gives you MA9 with reroll to get to the End-Zone.

Having said that, this means that you have developped a Goblin to 3 skills, and he is almost exclusively useful for TTM plays. He's useful for other stuff like, well, being a catcher, but he does specialise in scoring via TTM plays. The Dirty Player / Sneaky Git and the Side Step / Diving Tackle Goblins are more generally useful IMO.

[fen]

Erm, I've scored in two turns and that was difficult. Unless you get a Blitz result on Kick-Off table I don't know how they can score in 1 turn.

You can do it as you have two Frenzy players on the team. It involves clever positioning and chain pushing the Runner a grand total of 5 Squares. It's easier if the Runner has +MA/Sprint (only need to push 4 squares then) or you get a quick snap (that helps with positioning). Touchbacks help immensely as you don't have to pass the ball to the runner first to pull it off. It's still very tough to pull off and is probably one of the most coach skill intensive plays in the game.

To get an idea it's worth looking up the one turn Touchdown article on FUMBBL and the one by brownrob on the Specialist Games site.

[mattgslater]

You can do it as you have two Frenzy players on the team. It involves clever positioning and chain pushing the Runner a grand total of 5 Squares. It's easier if the Runner has +MA/Sprint (only need to push 4 squares then) or you get a quick snap (that helps with positioning). Touchbacks help immensely as you don't have to pass the ball to the runner first to pull it off. It's still very tough to pull off and is probably one of the most coach skill intensive plays in the game.

To get an idea it's worth looking up the one turn Touchdown article on FUMBBL and the one by brownrob on the Specialist Games site.

That's both very gimmicky and very dangerous, not to mention all-but completely impossible if your opponent has 9 or more players... I'll definitely have to read that article, but that doesn't sound like something I'd try no matter how desperate the situation.

I could see the TTM thing, maybe... but I wouldn't invest a skill (Sprint) in a guy just because I might throw him; on the contrary, that sounds like a great excuse for not skilling him at all (or giving him Pro on doubles and being done with it). Sure Feet I could see, because the standard 2TS plan for a Gob on an Orc teaam involves one or more GFI rolls and often doesn't allow for a TRR just by virtue of mostly coming up in turns 6-8 of the half.