Slann Thrower!

[bouf]

What's this??? A new positional???

No, I'm developing one of my Catchers into a Thrower and wanted some feed back.

FYI: In case you don't already know

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Qty    Title     Cost     MA ST AG AV  Skills 
0-4    Catchers  80,000   7  2  4  7   Diving Catch, Leap, Very Long Legs    <GA/SP>

SKILLS

Now My plan is to start with Sure Hands...
When kicking, if the ball comes lose in a scrum, I can leap in and snag it, (with a little luck) and maybe dodge out. Plus it saves Team RRs for leaps, and protects from Strip Ball.

Next is Dodge
I plan to score a lot so I need this thrower to be kitted out for defencive drives. Dodge to help with block rolls and to get into/out-of sticky situations (Something Slann Catchers do embarasingly well)

Third is Kick-Off Return
KO-R has a realy good synergy with Diving Catch. I can set up 4 squares from the end zone, if the kick is going to land there... I move my three squares and still get a shot at grabbing it. (If that fails, it scatters from my square and won't touch back - which is a little bad, but with SH and AG4 it's not a worry. Either way, my thrower won't be out of position) It lets me use one player to over the whole back pitch and the other 10 to get in the mix. Also It cancels the effects of the kick skill which will only help. In the end, it makes any initial throws shorter and therefore more accurate.

Fourth is Jump Up
Having 7 squares of MA from you back, with a player who can leap, dodge, pick up etc on a 2+ is just nutty!

Fifth would be Block
Assuming I live that long.

DOUBLES + STATS
MA is good, you always need to move and moving a little more can only help! Shorter passes = more accurate
AG is good but a little Meh... I'd take it for dodges into crowds
ST is good but doesn't help me throw... It helps me do everything else however so I wouldn't pass it up.

Now the tricky one! What about doubles... My first thoughts are to take Pass and throw more accurate passes. But since all my catchers have Diving Catch, and I'm AG4... I don't really need accurate passes that much. Its the fumbles that'll kill me. So I was thinking Accurate instead - Purely for the +1 to make Long passes "Fumble on a 1". Hail Mary Pass was another that crossed my mind, but Slann Catchers are so manouvorable I imagine that I'll almost always be in Long Pass Range and therefore more able to throw an accurate pass and avoid Turnover.

What's tipping me towards HMP is the 2-6 = away. (assuming I'm right and HMP isn't affected by TZs) Imagine I leap into three TZs. Pick up the ball on a 5+ with sure hands. Then what? HMP it to the other end of the pitch, maybe into the arms of a diving catcher!

No fumble, No intercept, All good!

We all know that HMP ins't about making catches however... it's about being able to split your opponents defence to cover the posibility that you 'could' throw the ball to his endzone without trouble. Accurate dosn't help you do that but it will earn you SPPs.

What are your thoughts??? Are my skill choices sound? Would you take something different or in a different order? What about my Pass/HMP/Accurate dilema...? How would you solve it? Would any of those be worth more than ST or MA???

Thanks in advance!

[mattgslater]

Doubles ideas: Safe Throw, Nerves of Steel. If he already has AG3, Leap, SH, you'll use him a lot as a defensive ballhawk. Safe Throw and NoS both accelerate that: you can Leap in, pick up, dodge out and Safe Throw to whoever you can get open, or throw without dodging using NoS.

However doubles on this guy screams NoS, because it's got double use and so does he. If you can't get him open without moving, no problem: chuck to him anyway. If you can get the ball with him, you can throw without risky Leaps or Dodges. Sure, you leave him up on a guy, but if you score, who cares?

Is either of those better than Accurate or Pass? Not really. But they sure are more unexpected, and they're both better for defense, which is in truth the only thing that matters on this team.

[bouf]

My catcher Catchers will have NoS on doubles for sure... Couple that with Pass Block and 2+ leaps for a 4+ intercept chance and watch the Passing game Shut down to a screaching halt!

I'm not sure I'd go that way for the Thrower though... NoS would be handy for those scenarios where I leap into a crowd to pick up tha ball, but thats just about it. (Unless I use this guy as a back up catcher)

I'd get more value out of one of the other Passing skills I think... Assuming I roll doubles. But which one???

[bouf]

I should mention that we use the "DC works on bouncing balls rule" this season, but if the BBRC can sanction something good (Like the +1 to accurate catches rule) we'll change to that.

[mattgslater]

Then here's what I'd do.

One Catcher gets SH. If that guy gets doubles, he goes Accurate to capitalize on the 1+QP if he needs to pick up in a TZ. Next he gets Dodge, because AG4/Dodge really does help your passing game (kind of like NoS, in fact).

If you get a +AG guy, get him SH next too (or Accurate on Doubles... then you're scary. People will be treating the football like a Fabergé Egg. Overly conservative opponents = easy win.

Save HMP for a lineman.

[tenwit]

I did the maths on Pass vs. Accurate for fumbles chances yesterday. Of course, then some smarty-pantses over in that award-winning thread went and calculated it all for me anyway. The end result:

AG4 + Pass: 2.78% chance of turnover for quick, 11.1% for short, 25% for long, 44.44% for bomb.
AG4 + Accurate: 16.67% chance of turnover for quick/short, 33.33% for long, 50% for bomb.

So if you don't want to spend a TRR on your pass, then Pass is a better skill for avoiding turnovers, even for long bombs.

(Not saying you should take it, just that you may be missing a little information)

[mattgslater]

Yeah, but if you have a TRR and SH it's all different, because you won't TRR on pick-up or catch. So Accurate means you can make short passes (or QPs in a TZ) with a fair degree of certainty (~97%) if you still have a TRR.

With no TRR, it's not as good if you can work out a straight-up QP, of course, as 2+ is 2+, and +1 doesn't help but a RR helps a lot.

A short pass or QP in a TZ (5/6 w/accurate) beats a 5/6 GFI or dodge followed by any pass by exactly the difficulty of the pass (1/36 or 1/9) plus 100% of the negative value of getting knocked down on the GFI.

A long pass with Accurate (2/3) is better than two GFIs and a short pass with Pass (25/36 x 8/9 = 200/324 = 50/81<2/3).

[tenwit]

Fair point. I know that if it was my skinks that were in this situation, my receiver would definitely have to make at least two of GFI, Catch and (a 2nd) Dodge without appropriate reroll skills (I don't have any skinks with both Sure Feet and Catch yet), so based on my experience I'd still go with Pass over Accurate. But then I'd have an even greater need for the reroll, since my stunties have an additional -1 to pass anyway.

[bouf]

(Not saying you should take it, just that you may be missing a little information)

It wasn't the Turnover I'm trying to avoid... It's the fumble. With DC I can quickly recover from a Missed Pass. All that DT means that I could cover the Catcher pretty well even if he can't catch the ball. So I'm more concerned with getting the ball away without Fumble.

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  Chance to fumble!
~~~~~~~~~ Quick  Short  Long  Bomb
No skills  17%    17%    33%   50%
pass        3%     3%    11%   25%
Accurate   17%    17%    17%   33%
Acc + TRR   3%     3%     3%   11%
  Chance to hit! (AG4)
~~~~~~~~~ Quick  Short  Long  Bomb
No skills  83%    67%    50%   33%
pass       97%    89%    75%   55%
Accurate   83%    83%    67%   50%
Acc + TRR  97%    97%    89%   75% 

You are exactly right, Thanks to that Other 'Math Wiz' Thread I can now clearly see that Pass is still the way to go If I want to save RRs for leaps!

Thanks to Jural and Grogmir yet again!

But what of my other skills? Is My plan still sound?

[tenwit]

It wasn't the Turnover I'm trying to avoid... It's the fumble.

Uh.. a fumble is a turnover. An inaccurate pass isn't (unless noone on your team catches it).

But what of my other skills? Is My plan still sound?

Yep. Though other than sure hands, I don't think that any of your choices really help a thrower. A runner, sure, but not a thrower. Still, they're the best you can do with just GA access.

I guess if I was trying the same thing, I'd take a different approach, but mostly because I think I use throwers differently from the way you've described. I'd deprioritize Dodge: it's a top-notch runner skill, but I don't put throwers in risky positions. They're always one sqaure back from the furthest an enemy can get. Block would move up a notch, especially if I got any doubles or stats, but it would still be a late-career skill to protect my now-valuable thrower. I'd get Pass first on doubles. I'd take Pass on 5+5, MA on 6+4. If I rolled 6+6 or 6+5 before getting Pass, I'd take the stat and drop the idea of making this guy a thrower: I'd find some other catcher for that job. The ST guy would be my first choice deep receiver (get him Block, Catch, Sure Feet or Side Step), and the AG would be my cage leaper, because of the increased TZ that you can 2+ pick up from and 2+ dodge back out through.

To sum up my advice: I would make the first catcher who got doubles but no stat into my thrower. So he'd start with Pass, Sure Hands (or SH, Pass). After that, it's all icing on the cake.

[bouf]

It wasn't the Turnover I'm trying to avoid... It's the fumble.

Uh.. a fumble is a turnover. An inaccurate pass isn't (unless noone on your team catches it).

Sorry, it's just that stats you quoted before were for inaccutrate passes, and I was thinkig about the risk of fumble, not the risk of missing.

[tenwit]

Shouldn't have been.. I've been working on +1, 0, -1, -2 rolls, which means fumble on 1, 1, 2, 3 with any AG. Maybe I had an off-by-one error in there.. I'm at work, it's filled with off-by-one errors around here.

Have a good weekend!

[bouf]

I guess if I was trying the same thing, I'd take a different approach, but mostly because I think I use throwers differently from the way you've described. I don't put throwers in risky positions. They're always one sqaure back from the furthest an enemy can get.

I always play with my thrower close... If I had an actual thrower, I'd go the Dump Off/NoS road. I hate the deep thrower because it only takes one poor roll and your thrower is on his own with little support.

I don't tend to cage in the traditional sence, but I play a Pocket offence and keep my thrower in (or near) the mix. That way if i get sacked, the ball surrounded by my guys. Get sacked too far back and the only thing surrounding the ball is the blitzer and his assistant.

My amazon throwers were...
a> Wrestle, Dump off, NoS
b> Kick, +AG, Kick-Off Return (-MA)

Thrower B ended at Tied 8th in the season for completions. Thrower A Tied 10th

[bouf]

Shouldn't have been.. I've been working on +1, 0, -1, -2 rolls, which means fumble on 1, 1, 2, 3 with any AG.

With Accurate it's 1, 1, 1, 2

Have a good weekend!

You too!

[prisma]

Looking at the topic's title... I think a slann thrower as positional is a good idea ! Just avoid making him a standard-thrower, instead I think of something like

0-2 slann throwers 90 (or 100) k
6 3 3 8 leap, vll, hailmary, dump-off / skill-access: gp (as)