Development of Trolls

[mattgslater]

I'm in total agreement with everything Cramy said (mostly 'cause I think he was seconding what I said). However, I like the DP/SG combo on a lino better than on a Goblin. Either position needs doubles and anything, but the lino is more useful as a speed bump when he's not fouling, and the opponent can't (or shouldn't) just foul him out in response. The Goblin is more mobile, but I don't think that makes up for the lost ST/AV on the board.

I've never developed a Gobbo as a D playmaker (SS/DT) on an Orc team, but I've always wanted to. Had a Blodge/Side Step Blitzer once who just gave everybody fits... I could use him to funnel offenses right into the Troll I backed the line with on the other side. I'm worried though that a Goblin used that way will suck up blitzes and get taken out a lot. Orcs don't win by starting the game down players.

[Grogmir]

You can do it as you have two Frenzy players on the team. It involves clever positioning and chain pushing the Runner a grand total of 5 Squares.

Flipping 'Eck never even thought like that... but yeah, can see that be able to work. Man, learn something everyday.

That's both very gimmicky and very dangerous

Still If you're 1 down on the last turn (often happens with slow team) then at least it gives you a game plan.

Grog.

[PubBowler]

That's both very gimmicky and very dangerous, not to mention all-but completely impossible if your opponent has 9 or more players... I'll definitely have to read that article, but that doesn't sound like something I'd try no matter how desperate the situation.

All of this is true but when there is nothing else.

TTM is more likely to work but with more risk to the Goblin involved.
And of course very few teams have TTM.

And still no need for NOS...

[mattgslater]

NoS doesn't help much with a one-turner, I'll grant that (unless he lands in a TZ and has to catch-and-move). I still don't think that a one-turn strategy is worth developing a Goblin for (unless you just take Pro and call it a day): he won't last long enough to justify questions about his second skill. However, a two-turner is totally feasible and NoS does help with that.

This guy does just about nothing except catch, dodge and GFI. He doesn't even take hits... if the play works. Given his limited range of action, that doesn't leave a lot to do. GFI is always 2+, and there's no way to improve a Goblin's ability to dodge without rolling an 11. Catches, however, frequently involve either penalties or successful blocks/blitzes that aren't always desirable. As a result, any skill that doesn't improve his odds to catch is less useful than any skill that does.

[fen]

That's both very gimmicky and very dangerous, not to mention all-but completely impossible if your opponent has 9 or more players... I'll definitely have to read that article, but that doesn't sound like something I'd try no matter how desperate the situation.

If your opponent scores on turn 7 of a half leaving you with 1 turn to score in it's not gimmicky or dangerous. It's a seriously valid tactic, one that totally changes the tempo of the game as it catches even experienced coaches on the hop.

It's the very top level of BB play to understand it and pull it off imo.

[mattgslater]

- - A B|C

- - D A|B C

Top of diagram is LOS: diagram only includes squares on line. Left side is sideline. C blocks B, 2d (use upper diagram if A is +ST or B is -ST, lower diagram if not). 75% (if B has Dodge) or 56% (if not) gets him in front of A, where A blocks B, pushing him two squares forward. For a GR or WE Catcher, that's all you need to score: you can blitz down the line to open a hole, and you're golden on two 75% checks with a RR if needed (though you might need it to Catch or GFI). With a slower guy, you may need a Blitz and/or Frenzy to make it happen.

It's not that advanced. It's just cheezy and I'm shocked that it's legal.

I mean, you can (and do) block your own guy in American FB, but only either to push someone else, or to get him across the EZ, not to make him faster. That doesn't make sense.

I think this begs a rule: if you get pushed before your action on your turn, you lose your action. That would solve the problem and still allow for a heroic shove into the endzone.

[Grogmir]

Matt try working it out for a Dwarf team (if you do can you tell me!? lol). A team much more likely to be left only 1 turn to score.

Agree that its a bit icky though. but then I hate any team having a 1ts. Takes loads of fun out the game and gives a massive (overloading imo) advantage to the team that has it.

But then I'm just bitter cause my DE's lost to a WE team with a 1ts.

[mattgslater]

This is very dangerous if your Runner doesn't have Dodge, and all-but impossible if you have to bust a hole open.

- - T T|R B

B (Blocker or Blitzer) blocks Runner in front of Slayers.
Either Slayer blocks twice.
The other one blitzes and blocks twice.
The other Runner (not shown) picks up and throws to the pushed one.
Pushed Runner GFIs twice.

Problems:

1) It doesn't work. I just looked it up.
P. 9: "Instead of moving, a player may throw a block at an opposing player who is in an adjacent square." Emphasis mine. It's not so clear about blitzing, but you'd have to Frenzy a GR even if that works.

2) If it did work, it would require a doubles skill on a Dwarf Runner.

3) It's five 3/4 blocks, one 2/3 or worse pass, one 2/3 or worse catch, and two 5/6 GFIs, with only one RR, tops. Without the TRR (and assuming a QP and no enemy TZs) it's (5^2 x 3^5 x 2^2 = 25 x 243 x 4 = 24,300) out of (6^2 x 4^5 x 3^2 = 36 x 256 x 9 = 82,944), or about 29% (back-of-envelope). That's if your opponent's too thin to be relevant. Failure probably knocks down your Runner, yielding about .05 Casualties.

Hey, that's only crappy, as opposed to awful. That would be feasible... were it legal. It still would take a doubles roll on a Runner improvement, or it suddenly gets much much worse.

[fen]

Umm. are you talking about Blocking your own guys? If so, that's not how it's done. You're not allowed to Block your own guys in BB.

http://www.specialist-games.com/assets/ ... neTurn.pdf

That's a couple of examples how to do it. The Norse Article is more relevant as it's the frenzy heavy method. Once you get used to those methods you start to see the other possibilities involved.

It requires plenty of 2D Blocks seeking pushbacks, but pushbacks are pretty easy to roll. Then all that's needed is a Pick up and hand off/pass and a final move action to score.

It's one reason why you should always line up your back line to cover every square with tackle zones.

It's also freaking easy to do with Woodies and Skaven...

[mattgslater]

Ah. That had me confused. Ok: got no problem with that, and have used the principle in the past (though never to set up a 1-Turner). Still, that's pretty damn situational. If your opponent knows to set up for it on the last turn of the half, it's so not going to happen. It also depends on getting pushes instead of KDs on particular blocks. That can be hard to depend on.

[Jural]

(regarding one turn scores by chain pushing)
It's the very top level of BB play to understand it and pull it off imo.

Scoring by chain pushing doesn't overly impress me- but people who understand secondary pushes and how to take advantage of them (especially with Side Step and Frenzy) can make mincemeat out of even pretty good coaches.

It's the most advanced tactic in Blood Bowl, and it sets apart the men from the boys.

[mattgslater]

Definitely creative pushing is one of the more complex aspects of BB, but there are so many: defensive set-up, for instance, is in great part about offensive pushing options, but it's also about game theory (lots of dilemmas). There's too much to study with this game to discuss one advanced aspect as the plateau.

[TuernRedvenom]

Still, that's pretty damn situational. If your opponent knows to set up for it on the last turn of the half, it's so not going to happen. It also depends on getting pushes instead of KDs on particular blocks. That can be hard to depend on.

I've seen it happen succesfully multiple times in tourneys (at least 10 different occasions IIRC) with skaven and woodies. Many coaches even save their reroll just for this play...

[stormmaster1]

easy to defend against. just put defenders behind the LOS

[fen]

Um, yeah. That's listed in the article linked as well.

Thing is, if you place those players incorrectly they become extra "space blockers" and enable chain pushes with less players needed on the offensive team. The article has the two best formations in it, the "3 + 8" and the "flying V".