DE Blitzer development

[Jural]

Thanks for all the advice!

At the moment, tackle hasn't been a requirement. The team was originaly played in a league with Chaos Dwarves, Nurgle, Necros, Chaos, Orcs, and Vampires. The league was fairly short (8 games plus a 4 game preseason and a postseason,) so the lack of agility access league-wide meant I was only contending with 2 ghouls and 2 goblins, which I was able to contain.

I generally set up with 3 on the line in the middle on defense, and put my dodge linemen one square back and to the outside. My witches will be two to three squares back and in the middle. It depends upon the teams what I do with the 4 blitzers, and the time remaining in the game. Sometimes they end up in the wide 2 squares back, but sometimes I only leave one in each wide tempting teams to go sideline, and I bolster the inside defense.

Oh yeah... I've not rolled a single double on this team yet. I have rolled one AG increase and one MA increase. Someday I'll get some guard, I suppose! Maybe some might blow too, if I play the team for 6 years...

[DoubleSkulls]

I'd probably put SS around the 4th best skill on the majority of player types - Guard, Block, Dodge in front. Stand Firm is a worse skill - but for S access players generally a reasonable substitute.

However teams need team skills too - which include things like enough tackle/strip ball/leap, kick, dauntless, dedicated foulers (if you want) etc. Also specialist positions have their own selections. So its not an automatic choice by any means.

En Mass sidestep just stops cages dead. Effectively you form a near impenetrable barrier that just can't be burst through. So for agile teams its a vital long term team skill as alternatives (e.g. leaping) get less effective as the bash teams skill up.

[falconeyed]

I'd probably put SS around the 4th best skill on the majority of player types - Guard, Block, Dodge in front. Stand Firm is a worse skill - but for S access players generally a reasonable substitute.

However teams need team skills too - which include things like enough tackle/strip ball/leap, kick, dauntless, dedicated foulers (if you want) etc. Also specialist positions have their own selections. So its not an automatic choice by any means.

En Mass sidestep just stops cages dead. Effectively you form a near impenetrable barrier that just can't be burst through. So for agile teams its a vital long term team skill as alternatives (e.g. leaping) get less effective as the bash teams skill up.

I didn't truly appreciate SideStep until I played with pro elf blitzers. It was a Plato Out of the Cave-type moment.

[PubBowler]

Maybe you just don't know how to use it. It's not immediately apparent. I didn't think Side Step was that good either, until I started playing Pro Elves and got half a dozen ST3 Side Steppers on the field at once.

Entirely possible. I haven't played an elf team since 3rd edition (when there so much better skills in AG) but it's first pick on my four human catchers. But not more than that, no. Incidentally a member of Team Scotland at the WC loved it. Ended up with it on 4 or 5 players by game 9.

In addition to just being annoying, some other advantages of SS:

* SS is better than Stand Firm in terms of protecting cages (Juggernaut is more common than Grab, after all), and though it's slightly inferior when it comes to holding them up, it's much better for keeping your boys intact while you try, as if needed, you can hole up in multiple TZs without suffering multiple blocks, and you always know you're going to be pushed to somewhere that'll give you the best possible dodge/assist/TZ picture (depending on which matters to you).

* SS is an awesome skill for keeping a TZ on a particular square (like the one with the ball).

* One SS player stops most chain-push-based 1TS attempts dead in their tracks. Four SS players stops a GR with +MA and Sprint, unless he has Leap or the blitz yields a casualty, and it's also pretty damn smothering against a 2TS attempt: if you can't break in, you can't score the next turn.

See, it's this stuff which makes me think that Side Step has some hyperbole attached. All of this can be done at least as well (sometimes better) by Stand Firm.
Stand Firm can only be over ridden once a turn, by Blitz. Thus cages don't progress.
It shuts 1 turn TD down because you need to use blocks.
With SS and people around the ball (not unlikely) you might end up on top of it and then all bets are off.

I think SS is better than Stand Firm. But I don't think it's worth the extra 10k or the loss of the double slot to take it over Stand Firm.
And

Side Step might not be the best skill in the game: I think that's Dodge. But it's right up there.

Block or Guard

En Mass sidestep just stops cages dead. Effectively you form a near impenetrable barrier that just can't be burst through. So for agile teams its a vital long term team skill as alternatives (e.g. leaping) get less effective as the bash teams skill up.

Doesn't Fend or Stand Firm en mass do this just as well. Potentially more as Grab can be used on blocks and therefore multiple times a turn.

P.S. Sorry to Jural for hijacking the thread. Although I think there's some good stuff coming out of it.

[NightDragon 2]

Some very good stuff coming out of it. I did not realise that SS was that good tbh. Will have to start getting it in to my team to see how well it plays. Can a DE team really develop that many skills before it is hit by spiralling expenses and if it is limited on its skill development how high on the list does SS come?

[mattgslater]

I think SS is better than Stand Firm. But I don't think it's worth the extra 10k or the loss of the double slot to take it over Stand Firm.

Agreement there. Side Step IMO is just a little better than Stand Firm, which is itself an excellent skill.

Doesn't Fend or Stand Firm en mass do this just as well.

Stand Firm? Yes. Fend? Mostly. I think SS is better than Fend, so A access players would only take Fend if they already had SS (they do combo well). I think the gimmick isn't so good that mass-application of a suboptimal skill is a go, but I do think that non-A teams can use Fend on a few key players to supplement whatever SS/SF they develop on others. Both will also hose chain-push efforts. But neither SF nor Fend stops chain-blocks (in fact, SF makes them easier).

Potentially more as Grab can be used on blocks and therefore multiple times a turn.

Have you actually seen more than two players with Grab on one team? Seriously? When/if that changes, this Side Step strategy will either have a date with the dustbin or evolve with Fend. Unless you intend to play 30 games with one team, don't hold your breath.

But back on Topic, SS on this one guy here would let you maintain two SS cornerbacks and force your opponent to go inside, which will be an important strategy option in particular as the Humans and Skaven develop, but also against cage teams: if you can keep them in their half for a turn, you have a good shot at a two-turner if you have a little luck.

[Cramy]

Some very good stuff coming out of it. I did not realise that SS was that good tbh. Will have to start getting it in to my team to see how well it plays. Can a DE team really develop that many skills before it is hit by spiralling expenses and if it is limited on its skill development how high on the list does SS come?

With my DE teams (and I'd do the same thing for all Elf teams), I like to plan my team around a theme. The theme translates into skills combos for the team, as most skills are better if many players have the skill. And with Elves, there are so many useful skills, that it is easy to end-up with a hodge-podge of skills that are difficult to make work together.

In this case, SS would be the theme. Pick lets say 6 of your players and develop them with Dodge and Side Step. Linemen and blitzers would be the ideal choice here, and maybe Witches with Block and SideStep. For those 6 players, Side Step is their 2nd skill. Other players, give them the utility skills that you need as an Elf (i.e. Tackle, Block, Dodge, Dauntless, Wrestle/Strip Ball, Leap, Kick, etc...). Once these other guys have developped to what you want them to be, then add Side Step to some of them if you wish.

If you don't want a theme that revolves around SS, then give SS to the Witches, and later on to Blitzers.

One theme that I want to try is Dodge/Fend on every lineman except for a kicker. Idea is the same as discussed in this thread, stop cages in their tracks.

Anybody ever try a bunch of Block, Dodge, Side Step and Diving Tackle Elves? That's lots of skills though ...

[mattgslater]

Yeah, it's too late in your development to build around the SS theme the way a Pro Elf team is encouraged to do, IMO. However, two or three or four Side Steppers is totally feasible right now, and would add an extra dimension to your game.

That's the other good use for SS. If you have A access and Dodge, and are stumped on what to take, you really can't go wrong with it on a here-and-there basis. Like Stand Firm, really.

[whitetiger]

Side Step is a great skill, but I'd give him tackle. You have a lot of skills against basher teams, you need more against the faster teams.

[Jural]

I'm thinking Side Step. 2 of my other blitzers and one witch is pretty close to popping... and that could give me up to 5 side steppers. I'll probably mix in leap and tackle as well, and throw side step on some linemen once I have some more wrestle.

My goal with this team was a lot of dodge wrestle linemen, but they have simply died off too fast! I figure once I get those linemen, they will make life difficult on most bashy sides... even moreso than side step. Maybe I'm wrong.

One other note, we play in a league with a timer, and while one or two side steppers would be acceptable, a team based around side steppers is pushing the boundaries of courtesy. Sure the timer is stopped when we side step, but... My first concept for the team was a team of fend side stepping linemen, but I thought better of it.

By the way, I think the best doubles skills in the game are sure hands, block, guard, dodge, mighty blow, and accurate. In most cases, in that order.

Side Step doesn't make my list, as Stand Firm +10k in savings is good enough in my book And players without S or A probably need guard more.

[Cramy]

Keep in mind that although Fend and SideStep are good, you need protection skills as well. Fend and SideStep won't buy you too much if they are all prone (or injured). I like dodge more than block.

The Dodge theme is a great theme on Dark Elves. I have done that at a tournament, and in a league, and it was great. The move back by one square per turn strategy to slow down the cage is much easier. And Dodge allows you to easily re-deploy if your opponent tries to move his cage sideways, or breaks through your line. And Dodge is a tremendous help on offense, especially once you have lots of players with it. Add Fend or Side Step to your players "after" they already have dodge. Block/Wrestle comes before or after Fend/SideStep depending on what your strategy is. What you really want is blodging side steppers or fenders.

[mattgslater]

For a defensive end, Side Step is about as good as Dodge in terms of immediate protection on the line of scrimmage on Turn 1 of the drive.

Dodge:
Opponent blocks your guy 2d. He has Block, you don't. 20 perms say you fall, 15 say you get pushed laterally and hit again, and one says he uses a TRR. Those 15 pushes yield at a minimum another one chain block, with another 55.56% to fall. 60% of 15 = 9, so this is about 8/36 more chances to fall appended to the 20 you already knew about.

Side Step:
Opponent blocks your guy 2d. He has block, you don't. 27 perms say you fall, 8 say you're ok, and one says he uses a TRR. You're not getting hit again unless he uses the Blitz, and you knew you were going to get Blitzed somewhere anyway....

The odds stop favoring Side Step if chain pushes aren't a factor, and they flip the other way ever so slightly if there isn't a Block disparity, but on the whole Side Step saves lives about as well as Dodge does when and if it prevents a chain-block.