Bashing Elf

[Old Man Draco]

I would in that case reduce the Blitzer and Blocker AG to 3. They are now clearly there to bash and not to be agile.

[plasmoid]

For the record,
my old league has used high elf roster with -1MA and +1AV for many years.

The league has now switched to LRB5, and still uses the modified roster. And so far, nothing about their performance spells overpowered.

Cheers
Martin

[Jural]

I'd base it off the dwarf roster (sorta) and give them a runner over a thrower, maybe 6 3 4 8 Sure Feet?

I like the blocker idea, the other way to go would be a slayer type 6 3 4 8 Frenzy Something. But the 4 3 3 9 GAS Blocker would be great... Maybe he needs Tackle and Grab to start? Strength access a must for at least one positional on this squad, and which positional should be 0-4?

At the end of the day, I always thought this would be a fun team to try, the highly armored, slow, elf squad. Say:

Sea Elves
0-16 Linemen 5 3 4 9 GA 70k
0-2 Runner 6 3 4 8 Sure Feet GAP 80k
0-2 Blitzer 6 3 4 9 Block GA 100k
0-4 Blocker 4 3 4 9 Tackle, Grab GAS 80k
Re-roll- 50k

(Yes sir, Sea Elves... If anyone reads Erfworld from the Order of the Stick Site, there are a few other untapped elf varieties still )

[whitetiger]

I put this arguement in the discussion on the Specialist Games site and I'll state it here as well.

The reason we were saying the elves needed some help, and not just DE but all the elves but Wood Elves, is that the entire game is going toward bashy. They even took the thrower away from the DE. Sure, he still has access to passing skills, but he has to stay alive long enough to skill up.

Most teams have players with 4 or better strength. If you look through the rosters of all the teams, you'll see that a lot of those players also have 6 movement. Do you know how frustrating it is to have a 6 5 1 9 Kroxigor catch your line elf from behind? Sauruses, Vampires, Rat Ogres, are all as fast as nimble little elves. How is that? Some big lug with 4 or 5 strength, 2 agility and 8 or 9 armor can run with elves. I'm saying that the elves either need a bit of help to protect them or slow some of these big guys down. But something is out of balance. I'm starting every game with 2 or 3 journeymen because my guys are missing the game. And if the player isn't on the field, he isn't getting SPP and improving. My cheap players are 70k. That means I can't start a team with more than 3 rerolls and a couple of FF. And with only a couple of FF I'm losing on Fame every game and not winning money to improve the team with purchases. So, if they can't skill up quickly, my winning percentage is going to stay in the basement.

And personally, I'd love to have an executioner or two. Give a little pay back to those sauruses who killed one of my guys, gave 2 more nigglers and made 2 more miss the next game.

[Cramy]

The Dark Elves are a great team. They start a bit slow, but once they develop a bit, they are a menace. I have had lots of success with my Dark Elf teams both in leagues and in tourneys. And I have heard of many coaches doing the same.

But they are a difficult team to master. Some coaches struggle with them as they don't have any obvious advantage except for AG4. A bit like humans, but no strength access and more agile.

To your Big Guy vs. Line Elf comment. I hear you. And I hate playing against Lizardmen because of this. But you forget that every single Elf is AG4. To be successful with Elves, you need to take advantage of this. Otherwise you will be playing with expensive Humans.

LRB5 introduced a few skills that help finesse teams quite a bit. Wrestle and Fend both help a lot. Especially the combos, like Wrestle/Strip Ball, Dodge/Fend. The more traditional development routes block/dodge, add side step in there, are still excellent. More tools to extract the ball from cages, more tools to stop cages and not get hurt. Good for Elves.

The Assassin is a specialist tool useful only against certain player types. But they help against Woodies, Norse, Amazons, which are all teams that I personnally used to have problems against with my Darkies. The threat of the Assassin causes issues for them. The Runner with MA7 is more useful than a Thrower with Pass IMO. Darkies excel at the running game with hand-offs, and MA7 means less GFIs for the hand-offs. Pass is rarely used with my Dark Elves. Once the Runners get Pass then I'll pass a bit more, but I tend to avoid it.

Have little experience with the High Elves and Pro Elves, so can't comment on them.

Having said that, I wouldn't mind another Elf team. But that would be 5 Elf teams ...

[Beholden]

4th positional maybe even an elf blocker? 5349 Wrestle, Grab (GAS) 90k or 100k would reflect their nimbleness at throwing/moving opponents around wouldn't it?

Or maybe even two Blighted Treeman. 2519 Loner, Mighty Blow, Stand Firm, Take Root, Thick Skull (S).

The big guy limitations would almost make line elfs a better choice, but it does have nice flavor!

- Beholden.

[Jural]

I hate the current Dark Elf runner, but aside from that, I like the existing Dark Elf team. I don't think it needs to be improved. It sure gets owned in a bashy league if there is enough Mighty Blow and high Strength around though! Especially if there is tackle and what not.

I think Dark Elves at high TV can't really deal with Dwarves at high TV unless the DE's get some good doubles rolls or such upgrades. But other than that, I think they can hold their own. It;s the complete negation of Dodge (and probably 200k worth of your developedTV) which makes the dwarves such a hard match-up, well that and the uselessness of your assassins (90K at least.) But every team has their bugaboo- nothing wrong with that (annoying yes, wrong no.)

I would like the "Bashy Elves" 5 3 4 9 lineman for different reasons- they look fun to me! Even without any positionals but throwers and blitzers, I'd give the team a try in a longterm league.

[PubBowler]

I put this arguement in the discussion on the Specialist Games site and I'll state it here as well.

I replied on SG as well but you mentioned a couple of other things here that I'll respond to.

hey even took the thrower away from the DE. Sure, he still has access to passing skills, but he has to stay alive long enough to skill up.

From what I've seen, where Runners are used, they skill up much faster then the thrower used to (easier to get TDs mainly) without a big decrease in survivability.

[whitetiger]

I can't get skilled up in the first place in this league. That's the problem. I've played 6 games, every single one of my elves has sat out at least one game due to injury. This league is really bashy and the players aren't surviving the games. I'm playing every game with 2 or 3 journeymen. That's why I started a human team in this league and then a necromantic team. I wanted to have some fun. In a league against other elf teams, yeah, Dark Elves as they are are just fine. In a league with a Khemri team, 2 Chaos teams, 2 Norse, 2 human, my Necromantics and Lizards, the other DE team, my DE and the only High Elf team are taking a beating every game. There's a Skaven team that's not doing bad, but he's starting every game with at least 2 or 3 journeymen, and I think he played one game with 4. The bashiness of some of these teams is unreal, and the elves can't protect themselves. I understand and expect players to get hurt, but I've got a team that's getting devastated and there's nothing I can do about it. I'm playing the second half of almost every game with 7 or 8 players on the field. Then some of these other teams are just teeing off and by the end of the game I've got 5 or 6 players on the field, and half of them have nigglers or some other injury. Lost armor, lost movement, got a guy with 3 agility.

I played under 3rd edition rules for several years, played 4th edition for a while, and have played in 2 leagues now with 5 edition. The game has gone so bashy that most of the coaches around here won't even take an agility team. And I don't think I will again.

[wollfe]

its true my current league is also suffering the curse of the bashy teams - theres only my HE, a skaven team and an amazon team who aren't bashy - everyone else has a bunch of strength 4 guys or an uber fast big guy or 4 strength 5 guys ( yes we have a khemri team) or a combination of both.

and in all the games i've played thursdays game will be the first with no journeymen - and i'm having to face 3BOB's and a troll - yeah wont that be fun

high cost and low survivability make them a difficult team to play - don't get me wrong ag4 is good - dodge away - force a single blitz yadayada - but when that single blitz is guaranteed to stun your guy atleast - by the end of the first half you're looking at a horribly battered and numerically deficient team. - i've had 3 games when i've had no body on the pitch by the end of the second half.

and for your information current leaders of the league are khemri, followed by dwarfs followed by orks - bottom are the skaven, amazon and my highelves.

[whitetiger]

yep, that's what I'm talking about

[PubBowler]

but when that single blitz is guaranteed to stun your guy atleast

Anyone else a fan of statistical hyperbole?

[Cramy]

but when that single blitz is guaranteed to stun your guy atleast

Anyone else a fan of statistical hyperbole?

Yeah, you do roll the armor rolls, right? P)

Yes, it can be tough against such opponents. And once in a while you will get beaten to a pulp.

But if you play with the right strategy, you should normally do OK, especially with a team with mostly AV8 players. And once the Catchers have Block and Dodge, they can hold their own for the most part.

What I've seen in my league is the Dark Elves and Skaven taking the top spots, with the Nurgle and Necros lagging behind, and a few teams in the middle.

One thing that I find with the more finesse teams is that if they develop, they get scary. If they don't, they struggle.

But then again, isn't that true for any team? Developped team better than non-developped team. If you struggle for your first few games in a scheduled league, then you can find yourself playing catch-up for a while.

[Andromidius]

Why not just make rules for a Hydra Big Guy?

Wild Animal, Loner, Multiple Block, Regenerate and No Hands would all work, in my opinion. And possible Disturbing Presence and Prehensile Tail as well.

~Andromidius

[gsot_5]

My 2p...

From only playing against them, I hate the assassassassain. It's ass.

It's rock paper sissors with an extreme luck factor thrown in.

I've lost a torunament to one (seriously, first turn blitz! Dead wardancer, 3rd turn blitz! Dead wardancer, 8th turn blitz dead treeman. I kid ye not!) And in other games chased it round the park looking for a free CAS. Av7 not in a cage and slow.

I've never seen a game where it has had a fair, balanced and interesting use. Every other BB figure has been a game winner and loser in equal measures, it's just weird.


So to help DE, I'd drop the ass. And add the exectutioner but in this guise.

0-2. 5 3 4 8 claw GA. Cost to be play tested but I'd guess 90k.

Why? It's fluffy, not game breaking, useful against everyone, some more than others but would likely be developed block bash route with eyes on mighty blow on doubles. So would be good against av7 and obviously better against orcs etc.

I don't think elves should be taken up to other standards. Agility is theirs, leave strength and armour to others. But claw would be a reducer against bash. Perhaps a new skill name but same effect. Perhaps +2 to break armour only.