Chaos Dwarf, double roll, what to do?

[grampyseer]

I'd take the diving tackle...Guard will be aplenty in a couple games...having a couple diving tacklers is brutal. you've got alot of AG teams in your league.

[Jural]

You made the right choice, if you already had a few guarders then PT would be a good option, but as you don't, that guard now will give you a bigger advantage than any other skill.

For short term Chaos Dwarf teams (20 games or less, lifetime) My first skill choices look like this:

1) +STR
2) Guard

The only other way I would consider deviating would be Mighty Blow (normal advance) on my 5th and 6th Chaos Dwarves, if the other 4 had guard.

However, it's pretty fun to model claws and tentacles and tails on dwarves... so for a fluffy choice, the mutations are wonderful.

[mattgslater]

I'd never spend a double on Side Step btw. Stand Firm does almost as much on a normal role, and CDs have a great variety of other doubles choices.

CD = Dwarf with Guard or rookie
DF = Dwarf with Stand Firm and hopefully Guard
DS = Dwarf with Side Step and hopefully Guard
HG = Hobgoblin
MT = Minotaur, ideally with Guard
BC = Bull Centaur

Code: Select all

The 8-man Keep-Em Out
-- -- -- --|-- -- CD CD CD -- --|-- -- -- --
-- HG -- --|DS BC -- -- -- DF --|-- MT -- --
-- HG -- --|-- -- -- -- -- -- HG|-- -- BC --

More advanced...
-- -- -- --|-- -- DF CD DF -- --|-- -- -- --
-- HG -- --|DS BC -- -- -- CD --|-- MT -- --
-- HG -- --|-- -- -- -- -- -- HG|-- -- BC --

Still more advanced...
-- -- -- --|-- -- CD DF CD -- --|-- -- -- --
-- HG -- --|-- DF -- -- -- DF --|-- MT -- --
-- BC -- --|DS -- -- -- -- -- HG|-- -- BC --

The Stand Firm side is much weaker, but if you have a Minotaur you can disguise that... on one side. With one SS player, you can cover the other side. Put Stand Firm on your NT, and voila, the field is now sixteen squares deep and there's only one end zone -- theirs! It's really gross when you eventually get two Stand Firm/Guard Dwarfs to play defensive end. Heck, in that case, you could put a Halfling on the nose, and most teams would just flounder. But of course it'll be a Dwarf, himself with Guard. Scary stuff... after 10-12 games. Until then, all you can do is build, and your basic building block is Guard, maybe peppered with a touch of square control (SF/SS).

Side Step is better than Stand Firm by an order of magnitude, except at the line, where it's just a little better. Getting one tough Side Stepper makes a very very big difference indeed on a bash team with a Mino.

Of course, if you're only going to play 9 games, ignore all that. Against Wood Elves, you'll be glad you had a skill to control zones, but SS is just a little better than Guard. Your major issue vs. Woodies is covering the field with seven so you can leave a deep defender, because any line you put up will just get Leapt over, but if you don't play shallow enough for a recovery you'll give up TDs for sure. Still workin' on that. I'm used to approaching it from an Orky perspective, and man is it easy. BOBs are the best linemen you could ask for, and as blitz-targets, they come with a built-in assist, so you can always run exotic formations with a couple Tackle Blitzers and wreck their day ten times out of ten. Dwarfs, even CDs, don't have that going until they take a skill for it (then it's almost equal: ST3/Block/Guard vs. ST4/Block or ST5/Guard... I guess that favors Orcs).

[Thomsen]

We have about 14 games, but I havent experienced my CDs gaining SSPs as quicly as some of you indicate. Ive only played 2 games, granted my injury rolls have been lacking, but my sole CD with a skill role (whom we are discussing has gained it through a desperation interception and pass in the last turn (which led to a TD) and a MVP. The other Cds havent gained anything yet.

Whats your experience, do they rack up the Cas regularly?

Its my first time playing CD, so any experienced coaches, with anything to add are most welcome. Im thinking about using them in the upcoming Danish championships.

[PubBowler]

CD = Dwarf with Guard or rookie
DF = Dwarf with Stand Firm and hopefully Guard
DS = Dwarf with Side Step and hopefully Guard
HG = Hobgoblin
MT = Minotaur, ideally with Guard
BC = Bull Centaur

Code: Select all

The 8-man Keep-Em Out
-- -- -- --|-- -- CD CD CD -- --|-- -- -- --
-- HG -- --|DS BC -- -- -- DF --|-- MT -- --
-- HG -- --|-- -- -- -- -- -- HG|-- -- BC --

More advanced...
-- -- -- --|-- -- DF CD DF -- --|-- -- -- --
-- HG -- --|DS BC -- -- -- CD --|-- MT -- --
-- HG -- --|-- -- -- -- -- -- HG|-- -- BC --

Still more advanced...
-- -- -- --|-- -- CD DF CD -- --|-- -- -- --
-- HG -- --|-- DF -- -- -- DF --|-- MT -- --
-- BC -- --|DS -- -- -- -- -- HG|-- -- BC --

You showed a bunch of these set ups in your Triple Pow article and all I was thinking is your HG is going in the crowd. Once in the article it was a Wardancer.
Never put a player without Side Step or Fend one square from the sideline on defence. Just asking to be a player down.

[necromancer]

I play a long term league

I have 4 players with claw, mighty blow, piling on!

1 mino, 3 Chaos Dwarves.

If you play long term ALWAYS take the claw when rolling doubles!

They rip the opponent apart hehe

[Thomsen]

Claw isnt worth much in my league, as mentioned earlier most of my opponents are AV 7-8.

[mattgslater]

You showed a bunch of these set ups in your Triple Pow article and all I was thinking is your HG is going in the crowd. Once in the article it was a Wardancer.

In retrospect, I probably could have done a better job with that Woodie diagram. Victim of last-minute editing: I tested it vs. Skaven and HE, but didn't think of all the horrid crap a DE team or a skaven team with a RO would do against a non-SS WD.

If your opponent has any Frenzy, it changes the equation significantly. You really must tailor your defensive setup specificallyfor that skill. I should probably have mentioned that in the HtL column: I'm working on a sidelines column for the fifth or sixth installment, which covers Frenzy pretty heavily.

That left side defense isn't as vulnerable to Frenzy as it looks, though: since there's a guy stacked behind the HG, also one in from the sidelines, a crowd-pusher is likely to get crowd-pushed himself, and probably is a much bigger loss than the Hobbo.

Here, watch:

If FX comes in to frenzy with one assist, he gets a 2db, then a 1db. If he's +ST or puts a guy next to the sidelines, he's 2db, then 2db, but in the latter case he's blocked off his own avenue and can't even protect his own Frenzy guy (esp. if your inside BC has BT).

Code: Select all

XX XX FX --|-- -- CD DF CD -- --|-- -- -- -- 
-- HG -- --|DS BC -- -- -- DF --|-- MT -- -- 
-- HG -- --|-- -- -- -- -- -- HG|-- -- BC -- 

Code: Select all

XX XX -- --|-- -- CD DF CD -- --|-- -- -- -- 
FX -- -- --|DS BC -- -- -- DF --|-- MT -- -- 
-- HG -- --|-- -- -- -- -- -- HG|-- -- BC -- 

And then after moving a protector up...

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XX XX -- --|-- -- CD DF CD -- --|-- -- -- -- 
FX -- QX --|DS BC -- -- -- DF --|-- MT -- -- 
-- HG -- --|-- -- -- -- -- -- HG|-- -- BC -- 

To be sure, your opponent can protect Frenzy boy a little bit by dropping a guy into the TZ diagonal from the remaining Hobbo (QX in the diagram). This doesn't keep him from getting hit and it doesn't protect the team from crowd pushes (as he can be pushed into the guy next to the sidelines, who can then be crowd-pushed), and it forces the team to build their strong side in that one spot, regardless where the ball might go.

If you want to protect your guy from crowd pushes via Frenzy and you still want to block off the sideline, then go this way:

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- - - -|
- - X -|
- X - -|

However, against high ST without Frenzy, that's only beneficial inasmuch as you can force the opponent to blitz with a high-ST guy, probably meaning he has to tie up one of his two WZ options on the strong side to get the blitz. Against low ST, they can block themselves off or they can take 1d on your Cornerback. Neither one sounds wonderful if you ask me.

[PubBowler]

a crowd-pusher is likely to get crowd-pushed himself, and probably is a much bigger loss than the Hobbo.

That's pretty optimistic in my experience. There are lots of ways to protect a crowd pusher. High MA to get away from the sidelines, all the obvious skills or packing the area with other guys.

If you want to protect your guy from crowd pushes via Frenzy and you still want to block off the sideline, then go this way:

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- - - -|
- - X -|
- X - -|

Yes and no. It's harder but for any guy with frenzy and high MA it's still possible. And often worth doing.

If you have frenzy concerns stay away from the side lines altogether.
Or use a SS player, which I'm surprised you didn't mention.

[mattgslater]

On a CD team, SS is tough to get. On a Dwarf it's great, but you don't want to put MA4 in the wide zones. I'd like to see somebody Frenzy a guy off the edge from that cornerback-back position. I don't think it's possible to do in two blocks if you can't have Grab. Unless you have Leap, and that's just badness all around. In that case, PB is totally right about just staying in from the sidelines or using SS/Fend/SF to defend against it. If Witch Elves or WDs with Frenzy are a problem, then you'll need to get SF sooner and play around with the diagram.

Also note that by frenzying off a Hobgob in the above diagram, your oppo is ceding the larger point and making no real effort to break in. That's a minor victory in itself, esp. if you had a numerical advantage at the outset of the drive.

[mattgslater]

Hmmm... Multiple Frenzy and ST/Guard really knocks this D for a loop on both sides, and a single instance of Frenzy requires that you rearrange the sidelines. Yeah. I still like my above defenses against, say, Orcs. If you have that Side Stepper, it's no bennie to put him where I have him on the left side against Frenzy. However, in that case, you can just as easily swap your Hobbo in front in the WZ for the SS Dwarf, shutting down Frenzy on that side. Sure, Dwarfs, Chaos, CD, DE or Norse can break in, but none of those teams has a way to capitalize on that, and it won't be easy.

Code: Select all

Vs. Dark Elves or Norse, with 6 Dwarfs
-- -- -- --|-- -- DF CD CD
-- DS -- --|CD BC -- -- --
-- -- HG --|-- -- -- -- --

Vs. Dark Elves, with 5 Dwarfs
-- -- -- --|-- -- DF CD CD
-- DS -- --|HG BC -- -- --
-- -- HG --|-- -- -- -- --

Vs. Dwarfs, with 6 Dwarfs
-- -- -- --|-- -- DF CD CD
-- DS -- --|BC CD -- -- --
-- -- HG --|-- -- -- -- --

You'll also want to put your Mino somewhere else if you have to deal with Leap/Frenzy/Dauntless, probably on an Elf or Slann. BT Minotaurs or Snow Trolls are also bad news there. Either way, though, that's a lot of dice your opponent has to roll, and the rolls aren't all easy.

[whitetiger]

When I'm playing my DE against Chaos Dwarves, well, any power team with lots of stand firm and tackle, I don't hit them a lot when I'm on offense. I use my leap guys on one wide zone and then hit them just enough to pop one or two Elves through on the other side. And at that, I usually attack the Hobs. Now I've got 3 or 4 elves downfield and at the start of my second turn, I just need 1 left standing to score.

The defense you guys are structuring isn't as good as double stacking all the way across. The more tackles zones I have to deal with, the harder it is for me. Elves don't want a fist fight against power teams. They'll go over or around the players with block and standfirm. And I won't even bother hitting a power player with sidestep. What's the use? If I have to, I'll just mark him with a no ssp lineman and move on.

The worst defensives I face are when the power player doesn't try to force me into a fight, but when he forces me to move through tackle zones on every square. That makes me roll more dice, dodges and higher numbers on the dice for throws and catches, and the more dice rolls I have to make the more the odds of ones on the dice. Then the other player can foul my guys when they fail the dodges, steal the ball and form a cage in their own backfield. Now I've got to deal with a cage with dozens of tackle zones between me and the ball.

Used to play a chaos dwarf team that was a nightmare. That coach never put two players together against me. Just spread them all out all over the field. His front line was all chaos dwarves with stand firm. Then a couple of dwarves on the corners, and hobs and bull centaur in his backfield.

Hated playing against him. And that was with a fully developed Dark Elf team.

[mattgslater]

Show me a hole in any of those diagrams. Where is there a path in the covered area of any one of those diagrams without a Tackle Zone? Where? Where can you blitz a hole without running into ST4 or Side Step?

[whitetiger]

I'd hit the hob beside the centaur in the second diagram. I can move a lineman in to assist position and then hit him with a blitzer. Even if I only push him, I've got 1 difficult dodge to go behind the BC, then 1 regular dodge and then I'm gone. If you stack them, I've got 4 or 5 dodges to roll. And on the other side, I use every leap guy I've got, then 1 dodge and I'm gone. Once again, if you stack them, I've got 4 or 5 dodges even with leap.

With the defenses diagramed here, I would tend to be able to score in 2 turns. Not every time, but very often.

[mattgslater]

I'd hit the hob beside the centaur in the second diagram.

I assume you mean the first diagram, the one with only 5 Dwarfs.

I can move a lineman in to assist position and then hit him with a blitzer. Even if I only push him, I've got 1 difficult dodge to go behind the BC, then 1 regular dodge and then I'm gone.

Yeah, one guy. You can handle that with Elves (only). But you can't really follow him with another guy. You also can't do it in the six-Dwarf set-up, where that's a BC rather than a Hobgob.

If you stack them, I've got 4 or 5 dodges to roll.

Diagram that please. I'd like to see how 8 backfielders and 3 linemen can put TZs 4 or 5 deep on every square of a 15-square board, after a blitz. I like stacked wide zones: it forces the opponent inside and is good against Leap. I've never had an opponent kept out by one, but I have forced a lot of turnovers off of them because you get to blitz from either side. You can protect the inside instead, and cede either or both WZs, and that lets you protect a couple safeties and avoid crowd-pushes from Frenzy. I wouldn't do that vs. Woodies, but I might try it against Dark Elves, who don't have the MA to smoke me on both flanks and meet around on the other side.

And on the other side, I use every leap guy I've got, then 1 dodge and I'm gone.

Yeah. Different defenses for different offenses. Leap en masse changes the equation, esp. w/AG5. However, the diagrams I provided will work better than any stacked defense to hedge out a lot of teams. If your opponent has a lot of Leap, you need to play deep and it's ok to cede one wide zone, or the outer square of each. If your opponent has a lot of Frenzy, you need to set up carefully in the WZs or not at all. If your opponent has both, you just cede the WZs. Sure. But you can't discard some setup just 'cause you can't use it against this team or that one.

Once again, if you stack them, I've got 4 or 5 dodges even with leap.

I'm sorry. I just don't see it. Please diagram.