Should Brettonians be in Bloodbowl?

[dwarfcoach]

I know it's a bit late for the basics, but I voted no, just use the Human roster. It's a nice variant team model-wise and I have seen alot of Bret teams that look 'way' better than any human team I've ever seen but at the end of the day they are still humans, so they should be used as humans.

I'm sure that people well versed on Warhammer background could make an argument for different kinds of Orc team (different tribes whatever) but I don't think they are relevant for the open game. Sure, if you decide to do a 'variant season' when you are using only good-guy races or only Greenskin teams then it would add flavour but for the main game, non monsieur.

That is all...

[DoubleSkulls]

For the WFB cross over crowd the issue is that different varieties of greenskin, vampire etc are all dealt with in the same army book. In WFB Brettonians are separate from Empire and always have been.

That's a bit of a moot point since there is no intention to make BB more like WFB. If anything the drive has been away from that.

[dwarfcoach]

For the WFB cross over crowd...

Hey man, I ain't part of no crowd . I'm just aware that people have genuine 'background' issues with this sort of team, hence my neutral to understanding viewpoint.

That's a bit of a moot point since there is no intention to make BB more like WFB. If anything the drive has been away from that.

Which hopefully means that we can sweep this little variant team under the carpet and not look back...

[Joemanji]

I'd be all for a Bretonnian team if it added something totally new to the game (like the Slann or Underworld rosters). But designing the team from the basis of the WFB army book is a no=no for me.

[plasmoid]

Hi guys

Ian said:

For the WFB cross over crowd the issue is that different varieties of greenskin, vampire etc are all dealt with in the same army book. In WFB Brettonians are separate from Empire and always have been.

Exactly. Thanks Ian. That was always a big point for me.
In my thinking, Bretonnian culture is sufficiently different (e.g. distinctly feudal) to have it's own army, so it could have it's own blood bowl team too.

Joe said:

I'd be all for a Bretonnian team if it added something totally new to the game (like the Slann or Underworld rosters). But designing the team from the basis of the WFB army book is a no=no for me.

Hi Joe - considering the harsh words you given the team over the years, this somewhat surprised me (but in a good way )

The thing is - adding something unique to the game was always the ambition. But without breaking with the fluff description of Bretonnian culture. It was never about porting an army list.

To elaborate: The original idea was to have a BB team that combined super players with truly crappy ones. You have to remember that this was before vampire teams, ogre teams - heck, even before CD teams had rostered bull centaurs. Back then it was unique. This I found to fit with the feudal culture of Bretonnia: A team of stars, waterboys and cannon fodder. (And we wen't quite far in that direction: 6227 dodge linemen, for starters).

Admittedly, stars and turds is no longer unique.

But the team has changed. Both because of this, and to comply with a lot of feedback.
But I really think that the team we've finally reached does add something unique, and does still fit with the human fluff.

The team is this:
0-16 40K linemen 6337 - A
0-4 70K yeomen 6338 wrestle GS
0-4 120K blitzers 8338 block, juggernaut, pro/catch GS
60K rerolls. No big guy

And the niche is this:
A running team that can't resort to 2-1 cage-grind.
By design, the team is too weak to do 2-1 grind. The AV isn't high enough, and very importantly, their ST isn't high enough either. That should mean that they'll have to score rather than grind. Which basically is a bad position to be in for a non-finesse team.
But to not end on the recieving end of the 2-1 grind themselves, they have 4 players with looong strike range, and the ability to pull some pretty cool stunts.
And - they're still feudal by design.

Not bad- IMO
Cheers
Martin

[Darkson]

8338 on a starting human player is wrong, IMO.

Either the Blitzers are as fast as catchers, in which case they should be ST2 and/or AV7, or they're ST3/AV8 and as fast as blitzers - MA7.

A 8/3/3/8 on a human should be something special, not a rookie.

[IronAge_Man]

8338 on a starting human player is wrong, IMO.

Either the Blitzers are as fast as catchers, in which case they should be ST2 and/or AV7, or they're ST3/AV8 and as fast as blitzers - MA7.

A 8/3/3/8 on a human should be something special, not a rookie.

Agreed - the flavour of the original Human team is that they are skill-heavy, rather than stat-heavy. There's no reason why the Bretonnians can't employ a similar approach (for their positionals, at least), but employing different skill combinations.

[stashman]

Two versions from me:

"Fluffy" Team
0-16 Linemen 5 3 3 8 G 50K
0-6 Lord 7 3 3 9 Animosity, Block, Pro GSP 100K
Rerolls: 70K


"Standard" Team
0-16 Linemen 5 3 3 8 G 50K
0-4 Runners 7 3 3 7 Sure Feet, Diving Catch GP 90K
0-4 Blockers 6 3 3 9 Wrestle, Grab GS 100K
Rerolls: 60K

[plasmoid]

Hi Stashman,
I quite like the team that you called "fluffy" in your post (even if I think you got the team titles mixed up). The other one I think, respectfully, is a lot messier.
That being said, I'm not found of AV9 on the blitzers. IMO, that's a non-human stat. Orcish/dwarven toughness. And I wonder why the linemen are 50K. But it's not a bad team

But someone will probably be along to ask you what makes them unique - i.e. what they bring to the game.

Cheers
Martin

[plasmoid]

Hi Darkson and Ironage_Man,

Darkson said:

8338 on a starting human player is wrong, IMO.

Knowing that nothing I could suggest would get a positive response from you, I'm not scrambling for alternatives quite yet.

Either the Blitzers are as fast as catchers, in which case they should be ST2 and/or AV7, or they're ST3/AV8 and as fast as blitzers - MA7.

Well I could always go back to the official fluff response that Bretonnian aristocracy is thorough bred. Just like a magnificent horse. Just that tad faster than it's peers.

But, instead I'll mention that IMO it is the ability to Dodge (and not the MA8) that makes human catchers ST2/AV7. Ducking and weaving like that requires you to travel light. But running fast does not make you a weakling. The fastest runners/recievers in the NFL are not skinny little twits - they're at least as strong as the quarterbacks (throwers).
So I think that a human that runs hard and fast rather than dodging and weaving could be ST3 MA8.
Certainly, neither of those stats are in-human.

Besides, if I can't stray at all from the statlines of the human team, I'll end up with the human team. I know that's what you want, but it's not what I want.

Ironage_Man said:

Agreed - the flavour of the original Human team is that they are skill-heavy, rather than stat-heavy.

I'm quite surprised that anyone looking at the above team would think stat-heavy. No stats outside the human norm. No ST4. AG4. AV9. Just a human blitzer with MA+1.
That's hardly stat-heavy.

There's no reason why the Bretonnians can't employ a similar approach (for their positionals, at least), but employing different skill combinations.

I think they are.
Potentially, they could go even more stat-bland, with 7338 block, juggernaut, sprint.
They'd have same top move then. They'd just never use it.
And based on the playtest, they'd be dead in the water.

I think 8338 makes for the a human statline. And a fun and playable team.
Cheers
Martin

[Darkson]

I seriously doubt a knight, someone that spends most of their time on horseback would also be one of the fastest players around. Indeed, "fluff"-wise a knightly blitzer should be slower than a normal blitzer, as they spend less time honing their own running ability, relying as the do on a horse.

Sorry - 8/3/3/8 is just wrong. 7/3/3/8 is ok.
Giving an 8/3/3/8 statline just sounds like"they've got to be better than normal to make up for the rest of the team".

[Joemanji]

Not a fan of 8338 at all sorry. How many players have MV>7 and ST>2? The Wardancer (peak of physical and athletic perfection on the whole planet) and now Werewolf (superhuman undead monster). No basic human should ever equal those standards IMO. This is the fundamental premise of a human team, that they have no exceptional players stat-wise, but plenty of skills to help them compensate. Even 7339 breaks this IMO.

You can make an interesting and new team IMO without loading up a heavy stats roster. You can make "star" Knights without giving them amazing stats. You can make "dross" linemen without denying them G access. I know you are trying Martin, and I respect that. But these rosters always seem to be trying too hard to differentiate from the rest and "prove themselves". This is what I meant in my shorter post above.

One thing though ... IMO Knights should have Dauntless. No question, they have to go out searching big beasties as part of their quests right?

[plasmoid]

Hi Darkson and Joemanji,

Darkson said:
>Indeed, "fluff"-wise a knightly blitzer should be slower than a normal
>blitzer, as they spend less time honing their own running ability, relying
>as the do on a horse.

As Joemanji would not doubt tell you - these are not knights coming on from the battlefield. It's a professional BB side, spearheaded by thorough bred and "training since they were kids" Bretonnian aristocracy. But with a special flair for heroics, and a burning love for the charging into the middle of things.

Joemanji said:

How many players have MV>7 and ST>2? [snip]

You forget the player that he resembles the most. The high elf catcher. (Oh hey, and the Elf catcher is MA8 ST3 too.)

This is the fundamental premise of a human team, that they have no exceptional players stat-wise, but plenty of skills to help them compensate.

Well, I think Bretonnian aristocracy should be different.

You can make an interesting and new team IMO without loading up a heavy stats roster. You can make "star" Knights without giving them amazing stats.

I guess we have different views of what is "stat heavy" and amazing. I don't think that 8338 is crrrrazy. Conversely, I see a statline that I'd love to try out, one that really let's the player have the Bretonnian love for great solo plays, and one that isn't so outlandish that it isn't recognizable as human.

You can make "dross" linemen without denying them G access.

Could I? Any - any - suggestion other than 6337 G (or 6338 on team identical to the human team) has been fired at by someone, most notably you and Darkson.

I know you are trying Martin, and I respect that. But these rosters always seem to be trying too hard to differentiate from the rest and "prove themselves".

Maybe the problem is just that I believe (as Ian described above) that Bretonnians could and should be different from normal humans, and you basically don't.

But I'd like to add that all new teams added "lately" (or modified for LRB5), including the ones you've mentioned as positive examples, seriously breaks some design rule or other. In fact, I'm astounded that you'd mention the Slann. If anything, the new teams are considerably more outlandish than the Bretonnians. (ST4 players with frenzy. 10 positinals on an elf team. 7 different positions. ST1 players. 6 players with negaskills. Blitzers without block & catchers without catch).

So it seems that something new is expected of a new team. And as you said yourself, it should ad something "totally new" to the game. Try that with a bunch of ordinary players, and you'll just get "too bland - needs to be unique to not be a waste of paper" instead.

So, seriously, that's the catch 22. It has to be unique. But not.

Sigh.
I didn't even want to get into this. Certainly not with the 2 of you, who have so clearly stated that you want Bretonnians to never be a part of blood bowl.
I'd be happy just to cater to those that do.

I merely posted here to say that even if you don't see it, the new team was designed with a very clear and unique playing style in mind. And seeing game after game of 2-1 grind in the MBBL, I'd even say it was a welcome new tactic. So much so that I can manage that smidgen of "suspension of disbelief" that is a MA8 ST3 human.

One thing though ... IMO Knights should have Dauntless. No question, they have to go out searching big beasties as part of their quests right?

I'll take the bait one last time
You know they aren't supposed to be questing and slaying dragons.
They have enough on their hands trying to get that trophy.
You've been telling me so for years.

But - there are several good candidates for a generically chivalrious skill.
Dauntless is one. So is Stand Firm. Nerves of Steel. Leader. Off the top of my head.
I went with juggernaut.

Cheers
Martin

[mattgslater]

I'd see knights as heavy and slow Blitzers, like Orcs.

I'd do something like this.

0-16 Commoner: 6/3/3/7, G, 40k
0-2 Page: 7/2/3/7 Dodge, Jump Up, GA, 60k
0-2 Squire: 6/3/3/8 Block, Sure Hands, GP, 80k
0-2 Knight: 6/3/3/9 Block, Stand Firm, GS, 100k
0-1 Champion: 5/4/2/9 Dauntless, Stand Firm, GS, 120k
60k RRs

If the Champion rattles your cage (he's no farther off the Human profile than Mighty Zug), then maybe this is the way:

0-16 Commoner: 6/3/3/7, G, 40k
0-2 Page: 7/2/3/7 Dodge, Jump Up, GA, 60k
0-2 Squire: 6/3/3/8 Fend, Sure Hands, GP, 70k
0-4 Knight: 6/3/3/9 Block, Stand Firm, GS, 100k
60k RRs

I don't get why Squires would have Wrestle, but I do think it would be cool if some team had it to start. If Slann were ever redone, that would be cool there, given their long, muscular tails. But I don't see it on Brettonian Squires. Sure Hands makes sense, because a Squire is a Knight's factotum and needs to perform a variety of tasks. I put Fend in there on option 2 because he's used to getting out of the way! The Page has Jump Up to reflect the resilience of youth.

[Darkson]

If Slann were ever redone, that would be cool there, given their long, muscular tails.

I didn't think Slann had tails?