Dark Elves as hard to play?

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Thu Mar 13, 2008 2:16 pm

It kind of depends on scheduling rules. If you're playing a fixed schedule and your opponent would rather see you lose the next game as well, then there's something in it besides spite, perhaps.

In my league, we have divisions: you play divisional opponents more often, and your standings are compared directly to theirs for playoff seeding. If I'm up against a tough or high-ranking divisional opponent, I'll foul whenever it's convenient, including the end of the match, because this opponent's future success comes out of my mouth, even if it's against another team. Plus, if it's early in the season I'll likely see this guy again: if the guy I fouled to death isn't there to assist on the block that would otherwise have killed a player, the life I save might be my Blitzer's.

If my opponent doesn't represent a threat to my playoff position, then I'll only foul if it helps me win this particular game, and a Turn 16 foul would happen only if a score were on the line, and even then it would be unlikely. Also, we sometimes use non-elimination playoff rounds, so in the tourney you could see an oppo again in as little as two games if you both win your next match.

So just because the game's over doesn't mean there's no value in fouls. Not saying any of that applies here, but there are legitimate excuses.

whitetiger · Post by **whitetiger** » Thu Mar 13, 2008 6:02 pm

I agree there are reasons to foul. Even in the last turn. If you're playing in a league with a lot of good teams and its fairly cut throat anyway, sure knock the other guy's team around as much as possible. But we've got a couple of guys in our league who are just out and out unsportsmanlike. We had a brand new guy, only played a few games ever, and an experienced coach fouled him or crowd surfed him almost every turn. Crushed the new guy's team, haven't seen him since. It's that kind of stuff I don't go with. Yeah, it was a basher team against a semi-agility team. Yeah, basher teams tend to foul more. Yeah, it's in the fluff. It's bad form. Blood Bowl or not. Spirit of the game or not. Basically drove a kid out of the game altogether. Wouldn't have helped that other coach in league standings. This kid didn't have a snowball's chance in Florida of passing anybody in league standings. What was the point? And now a potential game mate is back to video games.

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Thu Mar 13, 2008 6:17 pm

Always make sure the new guy understands that he's going to take his lumps, and encourage him to either take a bashy team or go in with a thick skin while he figures it out. It does said new guy a disservice if his opponent moderates his play for his inexperience, and it's unrealistic to expect every gamer to be a perfect ambassador for his hobby. It's the job of veterans like us to give this fellow the help and encouragement it takes between the games to slog through the grimmy period, so that when he gets nuked by some boorish Orc during the game, he knew what to expect already. Besides, if said grimmy is on the fence before he learns just how bad his team can get munched (but after he's played a couple games), well, maybe this game isn't for him.

whitetiger · Post by **whitetiger** » Thu Mar 13, 2008 6:24 pm

I agree, matt, that this game is not for the weak of heart. I play Dark Elves or humans all the time. I understand about the death and dismemberment of players. But, still, there is a line that some players cross that they shouldn't. That new player should have been taught how to play the game. He wasn't even sure what the different dice rolls were doing to him. But instead, the other guy just tore up his team. Whether or not it is within the parameters of the game, within the parameters of decent human behavior it was just rude.

Maleficum · Post by **Maleficum** » Thu Mar 13, 2008 6:55 pm

Another thing is, that if the other coaches don't foul our elfs, we'll become *unstoppable*!

Playing hard against a newcomer, though, is bad form, I agree there. Seriously, whining that someone enjoys the violence part of Blood Bowl is also part of the game, but shouldn't bring all to much sympathy.

I lost my best Lineelf in a foul, it's sad, but that's how the game is played. My opponent won't see me grow countless skilled players either... good for him.

I do advocate playing the game a little different according to opponent.

Cramy · Post by **Cramy** » Thu Mar 13, 2008 10:46 pm

Maleficum wrote:Another thing is, that if the other coaches don't foul our elfs, we'll become *unstoppable*!

And that's part of the problem with Elves. If they don't get munched once in a while, they get really scary. They gain SPPs so quickly, and across all players when played right.

Maleficum wrote:Playing hard against a newcomer, though, is bad form, I agree there.

Now that's unsportmanlike. I believe that you have to taylor your game to who you play against. If somebody's new and learning the game, then by god don't kill his team. Crowd surf one of his players, and then show him why it happened. Foul once or twice to show him how it works. You'll win the game anyways, so at least make it more fun for him and help the guy out.

Now if I'm playing against my brother, then all bets are off, the gloves are down, and we go at it. That's OK, he deserves it.

stashman · Post by **stashman** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 12:45 am

Fouling is part of the game, BUT Blood Bowl is not that big with thousands of gamers so don't scare the noobs away. I always play nice and try to show the newcomers how the game is working. When you helped them instead of kicking their butts, they probably will get into it and maybe get some of their friends to play.

But if you are a WAAC player, who cares if you are only two guys playing once in a month just as long as you win!

Foul whenever you wan't but let the newbs be! Foul them in the next season instead, when they have learned the game and how to protect themselfs against bashy gamers.

one_second_of_insanity · Fri Mar 14, 2008 1:19 am

Well from experience I am a relative newbie but seem to be getting the hang of things a little quicker than others (which is a relief) My very first game I had 4 elves go crowd surfing against Orcs, I was warned that he would do it and what I did to let him do it, since then only 2 players have been pushed into the crowd and that was due to frenzy (the first time I ever faced it)

whitetiger · Post by **whitetiger** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 11:33 am

Yep. I can understand the need for fouling now again. Even against my own team. I once played in a league, Dark Elves. Had a Witch Elf with over 90 SPP. She had a +Ma. Every skill imaginable. You can believe she was a target. And she was eventually fouled and killed. I didn't like it much. But I understood it. I just fouled the guy back. If I remember correctly I think I gave a Beastman with about 40 SPP a -ST. Ouch. That's the game.

But we've got a couple of guys that foul just to be nasty. It's not helping their position in the league. Not helping them win games. They're just doing it out of spite and nastiness. I have little patience for that.

So, I'm buying another witch elf after next game, I've got 100,000 in treasury, and the game after that, well, I'm gonna see to it I play one of these fools. I've got 3 Blitzers, one with +MA, one with Guard and one with +AG. I've got a lineman +AG. And I'll have 2 Witch Elves. Pay back's coming.

Ullis · Post by **Ullis** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 12:33 pm

whitetiger wrote:Pay back's coming.

That's another reason fouling for no obvious purpose might make sense. It helps mold your reputation. When you go against a player like this, you're going into the game with a set attitude. You might want to just hurt, hurt and hurt, and that might cost you a win. On the other hand, you might play conservatively for fear that he's gonna foul you senseless. What ever you do, you're reacting to him, and that's an advantage for him. Its the same thing when you're going against a team that's never lost a game. Many players expect to lose against that team, and that's a bad mindset to bring to a BB pitch.

Ultimately, this is still just a game, and if your playstyle really is a problem to other players, then that's a problem for the individual player and the whole playgroup. I'm not suggesting that's its ok to be someone who others really dislike playing. I think that it depends on the playgroup. I dislike fuzzy interpretations of rules, I really like the four minute rule and I think Illegal Procedure is a valuable part of the rules. I'd still be ok to play in a group that play without timers or IP's (although fuzzy rulings would probably get to me sooner or later).

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 5:18 pm

That's why Mighty Blow is great en masse on Orc Blitzers. Oh yeah, two guys with MB/Tackle and two with MB/Stand Firm, plus a Troll and some BOBs with Block, and the bodies will start mounting. All that +ST, and suddenly Block on a BOB starts acting like Guard, as he can easily knock his way free to assist even if he can't get assists himself, and you can even block with him first with no meaningful probability reduction!

And the easiest victim for this team? Hard to say for sure (outside of Stunties), but Dark Elves are a good candidate. They lack the speed to easily reverse the situation, and have no S access or Big Guy to fight back with. They develop some nasty skill combos and they dodge well, but if you corner them they crack pretty easily, and their linos aren't cheap so they don't usually have a lot of reserves, or if they're very well developed they usually take a big quality hit with every casualty, as they need to replace double-access veterans with benchwarmers.

whitetiger · Post by **whitetiger** » Sat Mar 15, 2008 4:08 pm

The reason I'm getting the next witch is to be able to crowd surf his star players from 4 or 5 squares into the pitch. They're dark elves, right? that's their style. And I'll do that the first 3 or 4 turns of the game, and then I can start ganging up on the rest of his players. By the end of the first half, he should only have 5 or 6 players left on the field.

And Matt is right. Every casaulty on a DE team is expensive. The cheap players are 70,000 to buy. So, it's easy to have a lino after a few games be worth well over 100,000. And the skill sets the new players have to get to replace the old ones are at least 3 or 4 games away.

After 8 games, my DE are now:

#1 runner: dump off, dodge, +MA
#3 blitzer: block, dodge, +MA
#4 blitzer: block, dodge, guard
#5 blitzer: block, +AG
#7 Lineman:
#9 Lineman:
#10 Lineman: +AG
#11 Lineman: block
#12 Lineman: block, dodge
#13 Lineman:
#14 Lineman: block, +MA
#15 witch: dodge, JU, frenzy, block

3 RR, 5 fans, 1 coach, 1 cheerleader, 1 Apo, 100K treasury

I finally got the basics covered. Kept getting guys killed and such. But I finally have enough blodgers to be able to keep standing and doing things. I got really lucky in games #6 and #7, rolled 2 +MA and then 1 +MA and the 2 +AG. I had planned on getting other skills on the players that skilled up in those games, but stat increases are kinda hard to turn down.

Skipper · Post by **Skipper** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 6:59 pm

I don't know, I fouled a Wardancer on the 8th turn at the end of last season. He had been ruining everyones day and it was a chance to take him down a notch. So the boots flew, he was killed in the melee, and yet the woodevles were still 300,000 gp higher ranked than everyone else. The coach of the elves was upset, but everyone else was elated as it was one less monster to deal with. Against a star player like that, I'd do it again every chance. I expect the same when one of my current teams Vampires hits the ground. Its just part of the game.

In the game mentioned here, the lineman may not have seemed significant to you, but in the eyes of the loosing coach, it was a chance to make a difference. Not in the current game (other than a little gloat of evil) but in later games. Granted, I doubt I'd have fouled in this situation unless the tournament was close and I new the team would clean up with an intact roster.

Skipper

stashman · Post by **stashman** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 7:19 pm

http://www.brisbane.bloodbowlleague.com ... pl&pid=439

This ST4 AV8 wardancer deserves to be fouled every possible turn

Marlow · Post by **Marlow** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 8:48 pm

whitetiger wrote:The reason I'm getting the next witch is to be able to crowd surf his star players from 4 or 5 squares into the pitch.

How do you do that? Frenzy push them into the second Witch and then into the crowd?
Sounds a lot of work to setup...