Should Brettonians be in Bloodbowl?

[mattgslater]

No takers? Oh, well. I like it, at least. I think it'd be both fluffy and fun to play, and it would play well to its fluff, with in-your-face positionals and afterthought linemen who are nonetheless worthwhile ball-getters. If it's underpowered, bump the linos by +MA and +10k, effectively making them nerfed Norse (the Bretonnians make it up on positional quality). That cheapens the RRs.

Taking the Commoner change, we'd have:
0-16 Commoner: 6/3/3/7 Accurate G 50k
0-2 Page: 7/2/3/7 Dodge, Jump Up GA 60k
0-2 Squire: 7/3/3/8 Fend GA 80k
0-4 Knight: 6/3/3/9 Block, DauntlesStand Firm GS 110k
RR: 60k

In that case, you could buy:
6x Commoner: 30
2x Page: 12
2x Squire: 16
2x Knight: 22
3x RR: 18
20k left

Or
3x Commoner: 15
2x Page: 12
2x Squire: 16
4x Knight: 44
2x RR: 12
10k left

I like that better. The linos don't suck, but really only two or so will get to use their starting skill very much, and they do pay for it. They also end up the worse by comparison to Norse and Zon linos, but that's really ok because the positionals are better than those teams' positionals. At least the linos are easy to skill from an MVP.... but the real goal is just to always field three.

My reasoning behind non-football names is that this is a boutique team, and so names should be used to apply flavor. If it were a common fantasy race, then just positional names would be ok, as the race's physical characteristics would make the difference. However, there's no particular reason you'd be tempted to use fluffy models for "French Guy" (after all, he could then be dressed like any other Human), except inasmuch as he's named "Commoner" or "Knight" or whatever.

Likewise, each of those positions has been given a clear football function without any concessions to specific football training. I agree that all players need to have a football purpose. I don't think they need to be hammered one-and-all into one of six or seven types. After all, Lizardmen aren't, and really neither are Norse. Plus, there are all number of dual-purpose players out there, like High Elf Catchers, Witch Elves, etc.

In this case, Commoners are fill-ins and ball-getters (as they do have a fair QP), Pages are receivers and safeties: they just scream "give me Diving Tackle and Wrestle!" Squires run the ball or run interference for Pages on offense, and on defense make excellent cornerbacks, as they can quickly develop any of several neat Fend combos out of good early-choice skills, like Wrestle, Block, Dodge and Side Step. Knights are blitzers, blockers and big-guy hunters all rolled into one.

[DDogwood]

1) Lame, disrespected linemen who are very cheap. They might be good at something, but would have a clear deficiency, G-only access, and a 40k pricetag.
2) Positionals do most of the work. This leads me to see linos as more speed-bump than factotum. Still, they'd have Human statlines, with only a touch of deviation.
3) Positionals should be split evenly (or evenly-ish) into bashers and support. I think Knight/Squire/Page is a cute bit of terminology that helps support some fluffiness, but I agree that they should be designed with football utility in mind.
4) Support positionals should be ok. Bash positionals should be excellent.
5) No big guy.

It seems to me that, apart from the 40k linos and the big guy, the standard Human roster already fulfills all of these requirements.

It's beating a dead horse at this point, but I still think that the Amazon and Norse rosters are probably redundant, and that the Bretonnians aren't really distinct enough from other humans to justify their own roster. The rosters that you propose aren't bad (although I think the Knights are a little too good) but they look like they'd basically play like a weaker version of the Human roster.

[Jural]

I think your squires and pages are both fairly blah. I could take one, but not both. I would drop one and make the other 0-4.

I was actually thinking of a line-up along these lines

0-16 Linemen- 5 3 3 7 G 40k
0-4 Blitzers- 7 3 3 9 Block, Pass Block GAS 110K
0-2 Runners- 8 2 3 8 Dodge, Kick-Off Return GAP 90K
0-4 Blockers- 5 3 3 9 Dauntless, Mighty Blow GS 90k

The lineman are awful, the positionals a step-up from normal humans- better equipment and training. And everyone looks like they are equipped to do their jobs, albeit in a slighty unorthodox way. I wouldn't mind seeing the Linemen go to 5 3 2 7 30k either...

I'm not saying it's the right roster, but that says to me "mix of really bad and really good players", all of whom remain "human".

[plasmoid]

Hi all,
I know that this won't create a universally liked Bret roster - even among those that like Bret rosters - but I'd like to chip in all the same. I stumbled on some old threads. Quite inspirational. I even found one where Joemanji suggested a roster .

A few thoughts first
*I think a Bretonnian roster has to be feudal to be fluffy. The large majority of suggested Bret teams use weak linemen and some above average positionals. I think it's intuitively right.
*I think that Blitzers are the prime candidate for the top of the hierarchy. They can bash and score. They're the kings of BB.
*I think that Bretonnians should be a running team. But I don't believe that there are any good fluff reasons saying that they couldn't be a passing team. But, personally, I prefer running.
*I think we should stick to just 1 fluff name. It's safest for a mono-species team, even if the dark elf team has 2. That being said, I don't want 0 fluff names. Fluff names actually do help explain some profiles out there:
Commoner/peasant is an option. Yeoman is an option. Squire I've seen disliked by many - unless it is clear from the statline that the squire could become a knight. Knight or Noble even Aristocrat is an option for the blitzers.
*The team should have a clear vision for playing style.
*It should be unique enough not to be redundant. Yet bland enough to not be crazy (and not everyone will ever agree where to draw the line).

Secondly
*Having looked around, I see a lot of Bret teams using blitzers, blockers and linemen.
My current version conforms with that too - even if the blockers are called yeomen for fluff - they serve their lieges by blocking a clear path for them.
Logical blocker skills are probably guard (dangerous!), stand firm, wrestle, block, tackle and grab.

*I'm kind of glad to see several posters here suggest an AG2 linemen. That's where I started out too, way back in the day, before several posters flamed me for it - and I went on to various other options. I believe that Joe said that on a professional BB side, AG2 just doesn't make sense.
But it seems that to a lot of people it does.
Does to me too: Bretonnia is not an arthurian place. It's a nasty feudal place. And since BB isn't WFB, we could stretch that even further - making the divide almost apartheid-like. Almost. Nasty. That would explain why linemen are just cannon-fodder, and nothing more.

*I could really accept human scum linemen as almost anything but slow. Slow just doesn't make sense to me. But ST2. AG2. AV7. Heck, even AV6 if they're starved and downtrodden enough. There are so many options with the linemen, depending on how you want the team to play.

*The blitzers (i.e. Knights or perhaps Nobles is a better word, because it doesn't have military connotations) really need to shine, without overpowering the team!
If the team was just blitzers and linemen, it could go to 0-6 or even 0-8 blitzers.
Personally, I prefer 0-4 + 0-4 + linemen.

As for their skills, there are several obviously chivalrious options out there. Leader, dauntless, stand firm, nerves of steel and perhaps juggernaut all come to mind. Personally, I'm not too thrilled with dauntless, simply because it's been used so many times before. But the choice should be based on what makes the team have a unique playing style - and probably shouldn't be limited to just those generically chivalrious skills.

I've seen more than one 7339 statline. Like Jurals above.
I really don't get while that is more acceptable than 8338.
If anything, a 7339 player could shed some armor and run faster.
And AV9 is not really human to my eye. It's orcish.
But I could go with either one. Or even 7338 - but the team would need something to actually attract coaches and not just be bland deadweight.

BTW, I've seen blitzers with various new skill access variants.
I've seen P access, but that will attract comments like Bretonnians don't use missile weapons (however the heck that matters here).
And I've seen A access. I had that too, but tough players with easy access to blodge generally wasn't well recieved.

My team (with a semi-open mind)
Currently, I'm at:
0-16 40K Linemen 6337 - A
0-4 70K "blockers" 6338 wrestle GS
0-4 120K blitzers 8338 block, pro, juggernaut GS

Linemen: I've used A skills (and AV7) as their weak point, because it will support the teams running game. But I could really accept almost any toned down statline which is a little more weakened than 6337. Heck, I've even used loner, but coaches didn't like how that played. I have a very open mind here - and certainly wouldn't mind AG2.

The league I used to commish actually took my old roster and added more fluff/stuff while I went in the other direction. They've arrived at a lineman with 5327 fend. I Kind of like fend

Yeomen/Blockers: I like wrestle. I think it is a good blocker skill, that doesn't look like other blockers. And I like the fact that a team starts with wrestle. I'd consider other skills as additions. Tackle perhaps for a strong combo. Or grab for a cute and much less powerful one. That would really let them clear the way.
6338 wrestle, 6338 wrestle grab, or a more toned down 6337 wrestle grab make sense in my book.

Blitzers: As blitzers, I think they must have block. And I love the 8338. But given enough feedback (which I will never get) 7339 or 7338 look OK in my book too. I like pro, to make them the actual try all stars of the team. And I like juggernaut for blitzing power (chaaarge). But actually I'm fairly open to replacement skills.
I know pro is probably not a popular skill, but I love it for being a skill that no one can be bothered to take, and one that will really make the blitzers able to try all those heroic stunts that they ought to.

Looking at the thoughts I've juggled here, I see fend, grab, wrestle and pro. 3 new skills, which I think is nice (even if they aren't all used). And 4 underused skills - which I think would be interesting on a starting roster.

I know that it is easy to bomshell this with all kinds of constructive or destructive suggestions.
But I hope that you'll start with the options for discussion that i've opened up here.
Who knows what could come out of it

Cheers
Martin

PS - edit - if the blizers had to come down to 7338 to be paletable, then perhaps upping the blockers to 6338 and a 2-skill combo would keep the team competitive...?

[plasmoid]

Hi Jural,
I hope you'll work your way through my post.
Nice to see that you have blockers, blitzers and linemen too (even if there are runners on top of that )

As for your team, I really think it looks kind of powerful.
4 x mighty blow on the starting roster is scary to me, even if those guys are not mummies.
I hear a wall of moaning in response to those.

Also, I think that 10 positionals are overdoing it.
Yes, orcs and humans have that. I know. But no one else do.
And, very importantly, with 10 positionals, you'll only be fielding 1 lineman eventually. If the counterbalance to your super players is just sitting on the bench, you have one heck of a team on-pitch.

I just don't think that a "feudal" team can bear more than 8 positionals.

Other than that, as you can see from my above post, I can sympathize with a lot of your ideas.

Oh, AV9 humans do bother me a bit. IMO it should take more than just armor to put a human at AV9. Don't know if I'm alone with that feeling.

Cheers
Martin

[Darkson]

*I could really accept human scum linemen as almost anything but slow. Slow just doesn't make sense to me. But ST2. AG2. AV7. Heck, even AV6 if they're starved and downtrodden enough. There are so many options with the linemen, depending on how you want the team to play.

Why? I doubt if you'd lived on a poor diet for many years you'd be as fast as if you'd eaten a decent diet.

[plasmoid]

Hmm. Perhaps. I'd think ST and AV would go first.
But heck. Why not. MA too then.

[Jural]

Yeah, the roster I posted was more of an idea. It needs one of the 0-4 to move to 0-2.

My thinking was pretty pedestrian. The positionals would have access to better training (A "tactical" starting skill, better skill access) and better equipment (+1AV over standard Blood Bowl players.)

On your rosters, the positionals do seem a little bland. I prefer to spice them up a bit given how poor the linemen are.

Perhaps a better line-up would be:

0-16 Lineman 5 3 3 7 Loner 40k
0-4 Blitzer 7 3 3 9 Block, Juggernaut GAS 110k
0-2 Blocker 5 3 3 9 Jump-Up GS 80k
0-2 Runners 8 2 3 8 Sure Hands, Kick-Off Return GAP 90k

Re-roll: 60k

That makes the lineman as bad as can be reasonable, while still allowing the positionals to shine. I think the team would be worse than humans as well. Also, no Wrestle on a starting player, but the Blocker is built to take advantage of Wrestle quite nicely.

The team could easily be made worse if need be. The blocker and runners combined with the weak lineman would be what attracted me to the team. THe Blitzers would be what made it competitive

[DDogwood]

0-4 Blitzer 7 3 3 9 Block, Juggernaut GAS 110k

I don't think that any human Blitzer should start with AV9. I also think that any player with access to General, Agility, and Strength skills should have a negative ability or should start without any skills at all.

[mattgslater]

I think AV9 should limit MA to 6.

Most of those rosters don't have any raison d'etre, really. The one with all the Mighty Blow doesn't feel French at all, or knightly, or anything else Bretonnian.

I guess I have a big problem with non-racial teams like this if you take out all the flavor and name all of the positionals like every other team. Leave some imagination in the game for Christ-sakes!

Hmmm... @ Jural:

How about this? Change around the skills and access categories. Now the Pages and Squires seem very distinct.

0-16 Commoners (fill-ins/ball-getters): 6/3/3/7 Accurate G 50k
0-2 Pages (receivers/safeties): 7/2/3/7 Dodge, Fend GA 60k
0-2 Squires (blitzers-in-training): 7/3/3/8 Jump Up GS 80k (might be worth 90k but for sucky linos, expensive RRs)
0-4 Knights (blockers/blitzers): 5/3/3/9 Block, Dauntless, Stand Firm GS 100k
Re-Roll: 60k

[Jural]

Ok, but I like the linos sucking a bit more... but perhaps I made them too bad. What about your earlier idea?

0-16 Linemen 6 3 3 7 P/GAS 40k

I'm not sure they need starting skills, and maybe 5 3 3 7 is better? Starting with Accurate just doesn't do it for me, seems to specialized for a piece which should be crappy. Easy Access to Leader is not ideal (where are those traits???) but since it really isn't useful past one player, I'm fine with it.

The other positionals, I think you may be on the right track, but I'd stay away from too many universal skills. Maybe:

0-2 Runners (Pages): 7/3/3/7 Dodge, Pass Block GA 60k

Alternately, 8 2 3 7 would work.

0-2 Blockers (Squires): 7/3/3/8 Jump Up GS 80k

Ok, that's an interesting piece. But I would go a different way. Basically, this piece should be the piece that it put on the line, or useful in scrums in the wide. I view it as the Brettonian Flesh Golem, Or the replacement for the human Ogre

So 6 MA may be better, and 5 MA with Stand Firm and Jump Up would be a really nasty piece for impeding progress! I'd prefer 9 AV on this piece as well. But for a really nasty piece, Diving Tackle would be great as well, but then 5MA and 8AV would be the cap, I think.

Anything there?

0-4 Knights (blockers/blitzers): 5/3/3/9 Block, Dauntless, Stand Firm GS 100k

I would remove Stand Firm personally, although I like the piece. It doesn't really stand out, so I think I'd swap +1MA for Stand Firm, then you have a nasty piece.

So what about:

0-16 Linemen 6 3 3 7 P/GAS 40k
0-2 Runners (Pages): 8/2/3/7 Dodge, Pass Block GA 80k
0-2 Blockers (Squires): 5/3/3/9 Jump Up, Stand Firm GS 80k
0-4 Knights (blockers/blitzers): 6/3/3/9 Block, Dauntless,GS 100k

Re-roll- 60k

I'd also love to drop the linos to 5 3 3 7 with a skill, maybe Fend? It would represent how good they are at cowering

[mattgslater]

I think we're on a similar track.

0-16 Linemen 6 3 3 7 P/GAS 40k

I'm not sure they need starting skills, and maybe 5 3 3 7 is better? Starting with Accurate just doesn't do it for me, seems to specialized for a piece which should be crappy. Easy Access to Leader is not ideal (where are those traits???) but since it really isn't useful past one player, I'm fine with it.

Hmm... I don't like P access on them, because I don't see any other P skills as being appropriate. Accurate is because they're all archers, but they don't get to bring their bows. Really, it's a justification for making them a bad deal. As humans, I think they should have G access. If you don't like 50k linos, then I'd submit 5/3/3/7 Accurate G 40k or if you don't like Accurate, then 5/3/3/8 G 40k, but if so then the Squires need tweaking (maybe MA6, 70k).

The other positionals, I think you may be on the right track, but I'd stay away from too many universal skills. Maybe:

0-2 Runners (Pages): 7/3/3/7 Dodge, Pass Block GA 60k

Alternately, 8 2 3 7 would work.

But they're Pages, so they're youngsters, so they're short. Pass Block and MA8 are tall-people advantages. Fend is a fluff thing: they're always getting smacked, so they're good at avoiding it. I like your idea of Fend on the linos, though, but it's hard to balance that way (Fend gets better as you get more of it).

Basically, this piece [the squire] should be the piece that it put on the line, or useful in scrums in the wide. I view it as the Brettonian Flesh Golem, Or the replacement for the human Ogre.

So 6 MA may be better, and 5 MA with Stand Firm and Jump Up would be a really nasty piece for impeding progress! I'd prefer 9 AV on this piece as well. But for a really nasty piece, Diving Tackle would be great as well, but then 5MA and 8AV would be the cap, I think.

You're describing the Knight's job: 5/3/3/9 Block, Dauntless, Stand Firm. 0-4 means they can pull double duty, but no Knight is going to let his squire stand on the line for him! The Squire is there to run alongside (and protect) the Page, or to be Johnny-On-The-Spot when a blitz is needed. He's also supposed to develop into a Knight or something like it, and Stand Firm and AV9 are both already on the Knight model. Eventually you can even trust the Squire on the line or in a key linebacker position, once he gets Block or Wrestle and maybe Guard or Stand Firm. The major part of the point behind the Squire is that he's not really there yet and needs skills to develop. Once you do get a couple skills on the Squire, you can use him like a Knight in those situations.

0-4 Knights (blockers/blitzers): 5/3/3/9 Block, Dauntless, Stand Firm GS 100k

I would remove Stand Firm personally, although I like the piece. It doesn't really stand out, so I think I'd swap +1MA for Stand Firm, then you have a nasty piece.

Again, see above. The Squires weren't meant to do what you have them doing in that model, but the Knights are pretty solid at it. Think of the Squires as speed-blitzers-in-progress, while the Knights are more like bash-blitzers. Besides, I think there should be a real MA penalty for putting enough metal on a human to make him AV9.

[Jural]

Well, mainly I don't like how inferior two of the positionals are.

I really like the idea of a team with a human based good positionals, pushing the boundaries of how good humans can be (they have the best training and equipment) I just don't see that in two of the positionals.

But the more I think of it, the more I like the Fend Lineman. It's too good in almost all situations, unless the lineman is a complete liability in almost every other way. For example:

5 3 3 7 Loner, Fend 40k G/ASP OR

6 2 3 7 Fend 40k

I don't think a worse lineman exists in the game, and that's pretty important in my mind.

Also, I think it's important to have one positional who is meant to stay in the trenches and support the side. I thought the role was not glamorous enough for the knight, but if that positional must be the knight, then:

0-4 5 3 3 9 Block, Dauntless, Stand Firm 100k GS/AP

seems doable. Seems overdescribed to me, I might drop Stand Firm or Dauntless, as I think they are describing the same thing (Knightly Valor in the face of a superior opponent) Side Step in place of Dauntless and Stand Firm would be nice though... but maybe the fluff isn't there to support it. Certainly it would work for Samurai, but maybe not knights. Thinking out loud, dropping block and going Dauntless Side Step would really seem knightly- and blocker-esque! I think I like it best, but I'll sleep on it

Now the side needs some ball handlers. Unlike you, I don't like these ball handlers being support pieces for the knights, because this is Blood Bowl, not jousting or a battle. I think the positionals should shine at doing their job, namely defending and ball handling in the backfield and on the wings.

And of course they are well equipped and trained!

So, using your squires and pages, I'd make blitzers and runners

0-2 Blitzers 7 3 3 8 Block, Jump-Up 100k GS/AP
0-2 Runners 7 3 3 7 Dodge, Kick-Off Return 90k GP/AS

With linemen this bad, it should be OK to have good positionals that put human positionals to shame (Think Pro Elves vs High Elves.)

0-16 Lineman 5 3 3 7 Loner, Fend 40k G/ASP
0-4 Knights 5 3 3 9 Dauntless, Side Step 110k GS/AP
0-2 Blitzers 7 3 3 8 Block, Jump-Up 110k GS/AP
0-2 Runners 7 3 3 7 Dodge, Kick-Off Return 90k GP/AS

Re-roll- 60k

I like that it has a certain feel to it, a human roster that is built to mix it up in a scrum, with speed bump linemen and some heavy hitting blockers. Plus the side relies on it's positionals overly much, and needs important skills on it's best players (The 0-2 blitzers excepted.)

[plasmoid]

Hi guys,
allow me to comment.

1. I'm glad you abandoned the accurate linemen. I think it is this kind of translation that would make Joe cringe. Seriously, take the world champion archer and tell him to throw an NFL football, and I don't think you'd have an instant star.

I like a fend lineman much better.
Like I said, coaches really didn't like the loner lineman.
So, if he has to start with a skill, and still be sub-par, he needs a good kick in the nuts.

5337 fend 40K or perhaps 6327 fend 40K. I like the last one.

2. I can see splitting the "servant" position into 2. A blocker one and a runner one. I've done that myself in the past.
That being said, lots of coaches have in the past discussed human blockers, and I think a human team with 0-4 blockers would be neat.

But for the sake of the argument, 0-2 blockers and 0-2 "runners" would be cool enough.
Now, personally, but can't of like Jural, I just can't see the knights as the blockers. The support pieces. Allowing their serfs to steal all the glory. I think it is very unbretonnian and unfeudal. IMO, the knights must be the stars - and stars entail scoring duty.

So I'd swap some stuff around.

3. Like I said, I'm very weary of letting anyone but the knights be the obvious ball mover.
If one squire position has to be the "ball getter", I'd much rather do it with P skill than with A skills.
Yes, some people will dislike Bretonnians moving the ball through the air.
But I prefer it to serfs hogging all the glory.

Finally, as an afterthought, I think we've seen enough Jump Up pieces....

So, how about something like:
0-16 Lineman 6 3 2 7 Fend 40k G
0-2 Blocker 5 3 3 8 Stand Firm, Grab 70k GS
0-2 Runner 7 3 3 7 Kick-Off Return, Pass 70k GP
0-4 Nobles 7 3 3 8 Block, Dauntless, Pro* 110k GS
(*many other skills could fit here. NoS?)

Cheers
Martin

[stashman]

So, how about something like:
0-16 Lineman 6 3 2 7 Fend 40k G
0-4 Blocker 5 3 3 8 Wrestle, Grab 70k G
0-2 Runner 8 3 3 7 Kick-Off Return, Diving Catch 70k AP
0-2 Blitzer 7 3 3 8 Juggernaut, Dauntless 100k GS
Rerolls: 60K

Ok. Here is why.

Martins Lineman are great for the team. To stay away from danger and keep the opponent away. These players don't really wanna play Blood Bowl

Blockers with Wrestle and Grab makes way for the fast and weak runners (weak = NO general skill access)

Blitzers are diffrent from the Blockers. The are made to 2blitz" the opponents and push holes for runners.

Runners may seems like to fast but with no General skill access I think its cool to have them like MA8.