Dark Elves with Options Rules

whitetiger · Post by **whitetiger** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 11:04 pm

that sounds reasonable. I've been arguing along these lines for a while now. Why have a core skill for a player that causes casualties that doesn't add to SPPs? I can understand the need for a negative on the skill, but still, it ought to be worth something to use.

Jural · Post by **Jural** » Tue Mar 18, 2008 8:27 am

mattgslater wrote:I was thinking about just having ejections on doubles on injury rolls for that reason (that is, not on armor rolls).

I can get behind that... even if Stab didn't lead to SPP's. There should be no free actions in Blood Bowl, everything that has a potential benefit should have some risk.

Not necessarily a balanced risk (3 die blocks with block and a re-roll backer surely don't balance risk vs. reward!) but SOME risk.

a 1/6 chance of ejection (And turnover) when you have no more than a 42% chance (normally) of injuring a player... that's some OK odds. 7% chance of ejection, 17% chance of KO or better (AV 7)

Against AV 9, there is a marginal 2.7% chance of ejection, but only a 7% chance of KO or better.

A normal 2 die block with block against the same AV 9 player has a 2.7% chance of turnover and a 5.2% (3.8% if both have block) chance of KO or better... although the turnover can be easily avoided if a re-roll is available.

I'll sleep on it, but as for now it might make my houserule list.

Post by **DoubleSkulls** » Tue Mar 18, 2008 11:20 am

whitetiger wrote:(And please, please, talk to Galak, I really, really want one on my team. )

Its not just Galak you need to convince

Dark Elves are probably the best elves in a long term league and already have the most positionals of any elf team. Giving them another option that is obviously good AND helps to counter act one of their weaknesses is a non-starter IMO.

plasmoid · Post by **plasmoid** » Tue Mar 18, 2008 12:55 pm

Hi Ian,
I think dark elfs (or dork elfs, as friends of mine prefer to call them) are the least competitive of the elf teams. A win percentage around 43 in the MBBL puts them at the very bottom of tier 2.

Now I know that some of that can be explained (away?) with their unusual starting skills, which may confuse some newbies.
But IMO, that's not the full story.

Dark elfs lack stability skills. Barring extremely good luck, their early performance won't be great. That prevents them from advancing their FF and getting high winnings, which will keep this expensive team down for quite a while.
Yes, they can get good. But it takes time. And until then, there is a lot of "2+ without reroll".

I'm not sure I care much for elf blockers.
Me, I like ST-skills on witches. I mean, they're berserkers!
But probably much more efficient: sure hands instead of dump off on the runners.
Sure hands got canned in the design process, because it was considered too good.
Looking at the teams performance, I don't think it is.

Cheers
Martin

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Tue Mar 18, 2008 1:47 pm

If you're going to offer SPP for Stab, drop two positionals off the team (notice that that's what I'm doing). Otherwise you go from six good positionals, two mediocre ones and two sucky ones to eight good positionals and two mediocre ones, which is just too much if you ask me.

Jural · Post by **Jural** » Tue Mar 18, 2008 5:42 pm

The Dark Elves certainly suffer from positional bloat, and frankly I think it would make the most sense to remove the assassins, as there is not really miniature support for them anyway.

Besides, I play Dark Elves almost exclusively, and I just think it's cheesy to have those free actions.

whitetiger · Post by **whitetiger** » Tue Mar 18, 2008 8:20 pm

I've played DE almost exclusively as well and haven't had an Assassin on my team in years. Just not worth the expense. I'd rather have the runner and the extra speed. With 2 runners, 4 blitzers and 2 witch elves, that doesn't leave a lot of room on the roster for a positional that sucks. Especially since I can get a couple of linemen to skill up fairly quickly and get better skills on them anyway. So, for most people, if the Assassin isn't improved, it might as well just go away.

I like the good old days when any casualty gave SPPs.

stashman · Post by **stashman** » Tue Mar 18, 2008 9:20 pm

Dark Elf Assassin
6 3 4 7 Shadowing, Stab 90K

Pros:
+ Very, very good against Block/Dodge/AV7 players
+ Potential Multiple Block with Stab (nice indeed)
+ Shadowing for free (can be good on most teams with low MA)

Cons:
- Expensive
- Low AV
- Low MA

Thats my pros and cons. I don't have an assassin in my DE team but after playing a DE team with my orcs and Horkon stabbed my block/dodge thrower twice and got him down! Tried to run away but he shadowed me (bad played from me to end up in that place). Lucky overal but sometimes the dice are on and luck is part of the game! Will probably kick a AV lineman with Wrestle and add an assassin.

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 2:59 am

If you were going to use the LRB5 without options rules, but wanted to improve Assassins without adding to the sense of positional bloat, how would you do it?

stashman · Post by **stashman** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 7:43 am

Maybe Tackle or Diving Tackle

add him up to 100K

whitetiger · Post by **whitetiger** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 1:21 pm

I think what really needs done is to improve the shadowing skill. As it is, the only players that are easily shadowed are BOBS and chaos warriors and skeletons. The assassin doesn't have a real chance of following gutter runners and WE catchers, the type of players you'd really want to shadow. Give the shadower a + modifier on the die roll of one or two. And make him a 7 MA. That way, he's got a real chance of using the skill effectively.

plasmoid · Post by **plasmoid** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 1:25 pm

Given what I said above about darkies being very hard to start up, I'd deal with both issues by substitutaing dodge for shadowing.

Cheers
Martin

Jural · Post by **Jural** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 9:51 pm

mattgslater wrote:If you were going to use the LRB5 without options rules, but wanted to improve Assassins without adding to the sense of positional bloat, how would you do it?

Change them to 80k. Add Passing access. Drop the runner from the roster

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 10:17 pm

Part of what drives me nuts about the player is MA6/Shadowing. Shadowing's great on a Wardancer. On a Hobgoblin... not so much. Most people would rather just block him. On a 90k Hobgoblin... Shadowing is almost totally worthless. You don't get to shadow a CW or BOB. You get knocked down by a CW or BOB instead, and the oppo figures out how to blitz with somebody else.

whitetiger · Post by **whitetiger** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 10:42 pm

Exactly, matt, that's why I don't bother with assassins. They just aren't worth the price. Drop the assassin and add an executioner. That's a change I could live with.