Chaos dbl. dilemma

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 4:38 pm

Certainly Block is the best skill, but I don't think you need it for everyone. I'm a longtime Orc coach, and I can tell you that six or seven guys with Block is enough, if two or three of the guys who don't have Block have ST4. You also don't need all of it before getting anything else, though Block should be a general theme. If you're playing perpetual and don't really fear the idea of slowing down, take the Agility skills you know will combo well now. Chaos isn't for the faint of heart and you miss ball skills too, so don't be afraid to go off the Block path once or twice on the way... just don't make a habit of it.

As far as what skills to take on doubles? There are 4 A skills that I think are worth considering. Immediately, all of them lose to Block, but if you're playing a long season or perpetual league, that's maybe an excuse to take Block on one of them and an A skill on the other.

1) Dodge. Better than Block when getting hit by guys without Block or by Wrestlers, but can be negated. Combos well with Two Heads, Big Hand, Extra Arms, Sure Hands, Block, Wrestle.

-- Insert meaningful gap here --

2) Side Step. Fen's argument about Stand Firm is only correct early in the season. If the oppo has Juggernaut, Stand Firm loses some effectiveness as a linebacker skill. Generally, Side Step is superior to Stand Firm, and a wash for the extra 10k. This really makes it better for a Warrior (esp. as a 2nd improvement) than for a BM, but getting two at once is very tempting, because SS works best in pairs (well, actually en masse it's even better, but that's an Elf plan and you can't try it). If I got two doubles rolls on BMs with Block, or on two rookie CWs, I'd be all over it. Damn, that would be annoying. At this point in the season, on rookie BMs, not so much.

3) Catch. Like Extra Arms, but better, and you can take Extra Arms later. Got a guy with a cas? Use that guy to complete a pass to the guy with Catch, then he's a TD away from a roll. Got too many guys with 3 SPP and can't score with all of them? Throw with one rather than trying to score with him, then put him in at o-line, fullback, linebacker or safety, where he's likely to pick up a casualty. CWs are AG3, and can play this game too!

4) Sure Feet. You generally need to GFI more than once to score on D in two turns, and with your MA8 and skill deficit you may have to do that sometimes. Sure Feet helps a lot more than you'd think in a pinch.

Edit: Craig mentioned Leader. Yeah. I'd put that in at #3, above Catch or Sure Feet, if you're taking doubles for both. If you're ignoring one, I'd put it in at #2, in lieu of the gulf and better than Side Step (if you're only taking one double, any of the above would be better than Side Step).

fen · Post by **fen** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 5:28 pm

mattgslater wrote:1) Dodge. Better than Block when getting hit by guys without Block or by Wrestlers, but can be negated. Combos well with Two Heads, Big Hand, Extra Arms, Sure Hands, Block, Wrestle.

No it's not. It's better than Block when you get hit by Wrestlers but being pushed back is always worse than getting to stand still in once space. Ask anyone in queue if they'd prefer to stay where they are or move backwards. No cuts!

While it's fair to tole the virtues of Side Step (which isn't worth the 10K imo, people still don't listen to me about Juggernaut yet). It is countered by Grab like it's an inflatable prize in Supermarket Sweep and Grab is better than Juggernaut. So on the whole it's worse than Stand Firm because it costs more. Plus once again, queues.
I would recommend Side Step on a Crowd pushing Frenzy player though. I had a Block, Side Step Minotaur once and he was hilarious... for me.

Likewise Catch has some virtue and Leader is actually a fair choice, if risky on a guy who's basically going to get face planted as soon as your opponent figures out that eliminating him is the same as removing 120K worth of value from your team (because that leader reroll is still worth 60K to a chaos side, even though it only adds 30K) *gasp* and he doesn't have Block. Whee! Free points!
So, I'd still only want Leader as a second choice skill at best.

But my main point is, shame on you for suggesting Sure Feet. No self respecting Chaos coach should pick sure feet on their player unless he already has +MA and Dodge and even then he'd probably be better off with Side Step. If you need sure feet to score TDs as a Chaos player you're better off melting down your little horned goats and getting them recast into High Elves.

Andromidius · Post by **Andromidius** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 6:02 pm

Grab is high on my list of skills that I need to get. Being able to throw Elves out of the way that are blocking my cage will be a great boon.

But only after Block, and only on Beastmen. Chaos Warriors need Mighty Blow and Guard, really.

~Andromidius

Jural · Post by **Jural** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 6:28 pm

fen wrote: If you need sure feet to score TDs as a Chaos player you're better off melting down your little horned goats and getting them recast into High Elves.

Honestly, if you aren't manly enough to play Chaos, you probably shouldn't be allowed near a forge. But a shopping mall would be OK. Good advice would be to stop by a game store the next time he is getting a manicure, pedicure, styling, or going on a shopping spree for lacey underwear.

I am playing Dark Elves at the moment, so I'm not immune to the insults. I guess I just get evil manicures, evil pedicures...

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 6:34 pm

fen wrote:
mattgslater wrote:1) Dodge. Better than Block when getting hit by guys without Block or by Wrestlers, but can be negated. Combos well with Two Heads, Big Hand, Extra Arms, Sure Hands, Block, Wrestle.
No it's not. It's better than Block when you get hit by Wrestlers but being pushed back is always worse than getting to stand still in once space. Ask anyone in queue if they'd prefer to stay where they are or move backwards. No cuts!

If your opponent has Block, Block is a bit better than Dodge for the reason you're describing. If he doesn't have Block, then if Block would keep you on your feet it's a turnover whether you stay up or not, and that's only a 1/12 proposition in any case (skull/both, both/skull, both/both, on 36 permutations). Conversely, "defender stumbles" is chosen a full 25% of the time by non-Block players, regardless of the defender's skills (stumble/push x2, push/stumble x2, stumble/stumble, stumble/skull, skull/stumble, stumble/both, both/stumble = 9 perms out of 36). Vs. non-Blockers, you're 3x as likely to be saved by Dodge as by Block, and when you need Block when hit by a non-Blocker, you're usually happy whether you have it or not!

On the flip side, Dodge helps you do something you don't do well against anyone without Tackle, but it's not enough to be reliable. Block makes you better at something you should be doing, but it's next to useless when used actively against guys with the most common skill in the game (that is, Block), just like it's only useful passively when used against the same guys!

But my main point is, shame on you for suggesting Sure Feet. No self respecting Chaos coach should pick sure feet on their player unless he already has +MA and Dodge and even then he'd probably be better off with Side Step. If you need sure feet to score TDs as a Chaos player you're better off melting down your little horned goats and getting them recast into High Elves.

Note that I put Sure Feet last on my list, meaning that I probably wouldn't take it. BTW, you couldn't pay me enough to put Sure Feet on a +MA Beastman, no way no how: that'd be redundant. The thing that matters is the gap between MA6 and MA7. With MA6, you must GFI to get off a 2T TD, which is very useful if you end up with a couple KOs or if someone scores on/after your Turn 6. With MA6 and Sure Feet, that's not a big deal.

Craigtw · Post by **Craigtw** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 10:22 pm

mattgslater wrote: 3) Catch. Like Extra Arms, but better,

Totally disagree. Extra arms is better as it allows for catching and picking up which gives the Chaos team the all important ball handling skill which if you are without can cause turnovers for the AG3 Chaos team or burn RRs.

At this point of the team's development (i.e. early) I would focus on what the team needs - 1) Chaos needs skills to pound the opposition into the dirt which would mean Block for a first skill 2) You need a ball-control skill which in this case would be the Extra Arms.

If you are going to use a doubles for the beastmen, I would say to go with Dodge* as it useful for them as AG3 but also helps with the block dice. But this early in the game, and so few skilled players means that I would probably go the route of Block and Extra Arms.

*Or I might be tempted to go with Leader depending on how many RR you have

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 11:45 pm

You're right about XA vs. Catch. With XA, you can use him either to pick up and throw to get another guy a TD and him a Comp, or you can throw to him to get him a TD and the other guy a Comp. Plus, Catch+XA is only a fair combo, comparable to XA+SH or XA+BH but not better, and certainly not worthy of +10k (at least not on the first two guys).

Related Beastman questions:

1) What do you follow XA with, BH or SH? Does 4 TRRs vs. 3 change your equation?

2) On a +AG BM, what's next? XA, BH, SH or something else?

3) How many XA players do you want early? 1? 2? Assuming you go for Block or XA first on each, how many Block players do you try to get before you grab the first XA player?

Storch · Post by **Storch** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 12:33 am

To the original poster, if you are going to ignore the doubles and go the Block route, rather than 3xBlock and one Extra Arms, might I suggest instead taking 2x Block, Extra Arms, and Guard. For my team I alternated Block and Guard as my beastmen got their first skills and it made all the difference. The extra assist(s) add up quickly to a huge advantage.

Jural · Post by **Jural** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 3:04 am

mattgslater wrote:You're right about XA vs. Catch. With XA, you can use him either to pick up and throw to get another guy a TD and him a Comp, or you can throw to him to get him a TD and the other guy a Comp. Plus, Catch+XA is only a fair combo, comparable to XA+SH or XA+BH but not better, and certainly not worthy of +10k (at least not on the first two guys).

Related Beastman questions:

1) What do you follow XA with, BH or SH? Does 4 TRRs vs. 3 change your equation?

2) On a +AG BM, what's next? XA, BH, SH or something else?

3) How many XA players do you want early? 1? 2? Assuming you go for Block or XA first on each, how many Block players do you try to get before you grab the first XA player?

For me, it's always block... I never want a two skill beastman without block or wrestle... barring the extraordinary.

Post by **DoubleSkulls** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 3:37 am

I'd have taken dodge. Only in short term team life would ignoring the doubles be worth it IMO. If you expect to play 10+ more games then the doubles is better taken now.

With dodge you can double as the ball carrier or the mobile blitzer.

For a 2nd skill you've got plenty of options.
Normal skills - block, tackle, wrestle or even two heads (for more reliable dodging). If you've got leaping strip ballers to worry about then sure hands for a "safe" ball carrier.

Doubles - sidestep now really starts to kick in as you are better at staying on your feet, sure feet for the extra speed.

10 would be +MA too, fast players with dodge are nice.

Craigtw · Post by **Craigtw** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 4:27 am

mattgslater wrote: Related Beastman questions:

1) What do you follow XA with, BH or SH? Does 4 TRRs vs. 3 change your equation?

2) On a +AG BM, what's next? XA, BH, SH or something else?

3) How many XA players do you want early? 1? 2? Assuming you go for Block or XA first on each, how many Block players do you try to get before you grab the first XA player?

1) If I had 3 TRRs then I would probably not go with leader

2) on a +AG, then XA is a huge waste. That is unless you actually plan on being in TZs when you catch or pick up! In which case NoS or BH are useful. For a +AG beastman, I would go with dodge - increase his survivability and make him an excellent ball carrier/safety.

3) 1 beastman with XA early would be by choice, and then after a few others have got block and you are feeling strong, then get another XA for the passer/catcher combo, or in case you lose one. But for the beastmen (or pestigor for Nurgle) XA would be my very first choice for a regular skill upgrade.

Duke Jan · Post by **Duke Jan** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 8:37 am

No one mentioned jump up? On beastmen it can be very annoying, they get knocked over? So what, they can still move 6 on the blitz to get to your ball carrier.

Or take leap, yeah I know it fails regularly with AG3, but it also provides you with that threat of always being able to get to the ball carrier. I have been playing something like 10 games with a leap beastman now and I can remember 3 where he successfully knocked down a ball carrier that my opponent thought was safe. That's successful enough to me. Once your team develops and you don't need your re-rolls for blocking anymore leap only get better. Next it's very long legs, pass block.

Diving tackle I would only take if the beastman already had a prehensile tail.

*edit* Don't forget to get a sneaky git or two.

PubBowler · Post by **PubBowler** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 2:18 pm

I was going to post with a comment about Side Step not being better than Stand Firm, especially if you have to pay an extra 10k for it.

But Fen has it covered so I'll say.

Ignore the doubles on Chaos (except Mino).
You don't need them and it's quite fun to point that out to an opponent.

Storch · Post by **Storch** » Sun Mar 23, 2008 3:17 am

It's even more fun to look at the expression on your opponent's face when he keeps hearing "he has Dodge" and can't seem to put a Warrior down becasue of it.

Duke Jan · Post by **Duke Jan** » Sun Mar 23, 2008 9:36 am

Or leap for that matter.

Side-step has one added bonus over Stand Firm, you can choose where to put your player. This might be useful to fill gaps in your defence, while stand-firm only gives you the choise between where you are and where your opponent wants you to be. Especially on players with Guard it is very useful. You can move to give assists to players that can still be blocked or that can easily open up the opponents line next turn.