Noble and Townsfolk teams: WDYT?

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Sun Mar 30, 2008 5:00 pm

Maybe I should have posted this in House Rules, but it's a bit of both.

The Bretonnian thread got me thinkin'. I like the more fantasy-generic ideas, but I'm willing to lean on the WHFRP world as far as it goes. However, as we were talking about Bretonnians, two teams came to mind: a noble team consisting of low-born footmen and generally effective noble support, and a peasant team that really likes to get down-and-dirty. They're fantasy-generic, but while the players have been made with BB strategy in mind they're not football specific in title. As I'd be playtesting these in my league, I'm designing them around Options rules, but if you're incorporating them into 5th ed., you'd just pick the most logical one (not sure what that is, exactly) and stick with it. The balance aim was below Humans, but still competitive, with no funky rules and not too many skills.

Quick explanation of Options: Everything on the roster is available as normal. Then pick up to one Option from your Options list, and add it to your roster. You don't have to pick an Option, and you can change your mind and buy a different one later as long as the roster stays legal with only one Option at any time. For example, the Townsfolk team below could start with 1-2 Studs or 1 Ogre, or neither, but not both. If they start with 2 Studs but 1 dies, they can fire the remaining guy and replace him with an Ogre, provided they can pay the 140k for the Ogre, of course. Note that on-roster Big Guys are a tad cooler in my league (no Loner), and fouling will be a little better, so that does beef the Townsfolk just a little bit, which should be kept in mind.

Noble Teams
0-16 Footman 5/3/3/8 G 40k
0-2 Page 7/2/3/7 Dodge, Fend GA 60k
0-4 Squire 6/3/3/8 Jump Up GAPS 80k
0-2 Knight 5/3/3/9 Block, Dauntless, Stand Firm GS 90k
RR: 70k

Noble Team Options
1 Star: Maybe a cool Knight and Page, plus Griff and Morg are available. You can only take 1 on-roster Star (as your Option), and you can also induce one extra Star for a higher price than in LRB5 if you're the underdog. Induced players can't use TRRs; there is no Loner.
1-2 Knight
1-2 Page

Townsfolk Teams
0-16 Lineman 6/3/3/7 G 40k
0-2 Yeoman 6/3/3/7 Accurate, Nerves of Steel GP 70k
0-2 Footpad 7/3/3/7 Dirty Player, Shadowing GA 80k (ghoulish, no?)
0-4 Brawler 6/3/3/8 Piling On, Wrestle GS 80k
RR: 70k

Townsfolk Team Options (choose 1 line-item, or not)
1 Star: Zug, Morg or Puggy. Same notes as above.
1-2 Studs: 7/3/3/8 Block GS 90k
1-2 Assassins: 7/3/3/7 Shadowing, Stab GA 90k
1 Ogre: 5/5/2/9 Bonehead, Mighty Blow, Thick Skull S 140k (no Loner in this league, but induced players can't use TRRs).

Do they look fun? Do they look like they'll do what I'm looking for? Anything broken? Do any SWs seem appropriate? If you're against boutique teams on principle, that's cool, but please evaluate these as boutique teams for balance/fluff concerns, rather than evaluating the idea of doing this sort of thing in the first place. After all, you are (presumably) not going to be playing these rules yourself. Constructive reconstructions are welcome, but I won't take any advice that involves new mechanics (new integrations of existing mechanics are the goal, creating a fun, fluffy team with a fair bit of flair -- playable, but not powerful).

landrover · Post by **landrover** » Sun Mar 30, 2008 8:06 pm

Noble: 1 star option.

Townsfolk: 1-2 Studs.

I like the townsfolk more than the nobles for the simple reason that I dislike Brettonians. That aside, and bearing in mind the request to treat these teams as boutique within the fluff, I'd be happy to play either.

I think the ogre might be a little overpowered, but there's no other options apast from the star players for anything over S3 in the side.

I LOVE the brawler getting wrestle and piling on. It reminds me of the 'Grappler' skill from someone's prison team. Can't remember where.

Like the work.

Digger Goreman · Post by **Digger Goreman** » Sun Mar 30, 2008 8:42 pm

cockroaches, cockroaches, cockroaches...

tenwit · Post by **tenwit** » Sun Mar 30, 2008 9:42 pm

Knights are too cheap. They're both awesome ball-carriers and awesome cagers. Pair one up with a Page and you can get the ball anywhere on the pitch. On a team with just knights and linemen, they might be 90k, but on this team, they're unbalancing at that price.

Also, the Squires' skill access is just wrong. All skills are 20k for them? Ick.

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Sun Mar 30, 2008 10:28 pm

tenwit wrote:Knights are too cheap. They're both awesome ball-carriers and awesome cagers. Pair one up with a Page and you can get the ball anywhere on the pitch. On a team with just knights and linemen, they might be 90k, but on this team, they're unbalancing at that price.

Also, the Squires' skill access is just wrong. All skills are 20k for them? Ick.

I think you might be right that the Knight's price is a sight too light.

100k and MA6? 110k and MA6? 100k and MA5?

I agree that the Squire isn't a great deal. I originally had him at MA7 with GP access, but he steps on the Page's toes too much. Does he work at 70k? Should it be just 3 categories? If so, which one's out? I think that part of the Squire's schtick is that he can develop in many directions.

Hmmm... 70k Squires and 100k MA5 Knights? That doesn't change the pricing much on the team, but it does move both of those guys in the appropriate direction, for better or worse.

tenwit · Post by **tenwit** » Sun Mar 30, 2008 11:08 pm

I'd try Knight 100k as-is for a while. He might even have to lose Dauntless, or go up to 110k. Only playtesting will tell.

I think I'd remove A access from Squire. From a fluff point of view, I can't see any reason for them to have A or P access (they're knights-in-training, after all), but if you want a team with all skill access, you could go GSP. It will give this team the best throwers in the game, though (along with Chaos Pact).

Perhaps give the Squire Fend (if he's going to be the guy who hangs onto the ball until the Page is in the right place, then Fend makes sense), and the Page Jump Up ('cos he's the runner). Then you've got obvious and distinct roles for both positionals.

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:31 am

tenwit wrote:I'd try Knight 100k as-is for a while. He might even have to lose Dauntless, or go up to 110k. Only playtesting will tell.

I'm down with your prescription, but 60k for 3 skill ups on a starting profile sounds excessive. If 100k doesn't work, I might go 110k, but if I do, I'll either give them MA6 or knock 10k off the RR price. I doubt I'd go down either of those roads, but I'd do either before I took out Dauntless. The Goal with Dauntless is to help make up for the lack of a Big Guy, and to make Knights something that no opponent can ignore.

Hmm... I could remove Dauntless from the Knights, drop them to 90k, and put in a 0-1 Champion option? Not that I'd do that necessarily, but it might be fun. Like 5/4/2/9 Dauntless, Stand Firm GS 120k? Remember, that guy would be instead of Knights #3-4.

I think I'd remove A access from Squire. From a fluff point of view, I can't see any reason for them to have A or P access (they're knights-in-training, after all), but if you want a team with all skill access, you could go GSP. It will give this team the best throwers in the game, though (along with Chaos Pact).

Part of my goal is to keep Leader off the schmucks, and another part is to let the team develop a QP option and some cutesy combos in a long season. I'll take A off of them: I like that. I disagree completely about that best Throwers in the game bit: I think most dedicated Throwers are superior to Marauders until they hit the end of their curve, and Squires-as-Throwers are mediocre at best (compared to a Human, you get S access and Jump Up, and lose Pass and Sure Hands: 0-4 won't make up for that). However, it's totally feasible to start developing Squires as Throwers.

Perhaps give the Squire Fend (if he's going to be the guy who hangs onto the ball until the Page is in the right place, then Fend makes sense), and the Page Jump Up ('cos he's the runner). Then you've got obvious and distinct roles for both positionals.

Hmmm... I had it that way originally, but a couple people noted that the Dodge/Jump Up combo is less useful than Dodge/Fend on a ST2 player. I'm also concerned that with Jump Up, you're more tempted to get the Knight skill of Stand Firm at some point (esp. now without A access), while starting with Fend is a guarantee of divergent development, which seems to me less fluffy (after all, if you start with Fend you'll never take Stand Firm).

So, now I've got:
0-16 Footmen 5/3/3/8 G 40k
0-2 Pages 7/2/3/7 Dodge, Fend GA 60k
0-4 Squires 6/3/3/8 Jump Up GPS 70k
0-2 Knights 5/3/3/9 Block, Stand Firm GS 100k
TRR: 70k.

Another question: Vampire as Option on this team.

As far as Options go, I restructured the Vampire so that he can be taken as an Option player on teams without Thralls. Hearkening back to the old days of OFAB, I came up with the Egomaniac skill to replace Bloodlust, along with a price bump and no G access. The thread on its evolution is here:

viewtopic.php?t=23290

but the basic idea is that it's a 2+ to set your Vamp on the field. Available as the Option on the Human, Undead and Necro teams (replacing the Ogre, 0-2 Ghouls and all Ghouls, respectively), a Vampire is:

6/4/4/8 Egomaniac (2+ each drive or won't play), Hypnotic Gaze, Regenerate AS 130k.

Should I list him as an Option for Noble teams? Again, if you take him, it means your Knights are 0-2 rather than 0-4.
1 Vamp
2 Knights
2 Pages
2 Squires
5 Footmen
3 Re-Rolls

Hmm... that is pretty solid. Too much? The alternatives:

4 Knights: 40
2 Pages: 12
1 Squire: 7
5 Footmen: 20
3 Re-Rolls: 21

4 Knights: 40
2 Pages: 12
5 Footmen: 20
4 Re-Rolls: 28

4 Knights: 40
4 Squires: 28
1 Page: 6
3 Footmen: 12
2 Re-Rolls: 14

2 Knights: 20
2 Squires: 14
4 Pages: 24
4 Footmen: 16
1 Apothecary: 5
3 Re-Rolls: 21

What would you do? None of those looks problematic to me, but it does come out better than I thought. I think the skill mix on Pages is better than the one on Human Catchers. I still think the difference +10k is about right if you factor in the MA point, but those guys are pretty cool for ST2/MA7. Do they merit 70k?

tenwit · Post by **tenwit** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:50 am

mattgslater wrote:I'm down with your prescription, but 60k for 3 skill ups on a starting profile sounds excessive. If 100k doesn't work, I might go 110k, but if I do, I'll either give them MA6 or knock 10k off the RR price. I doubt I'd go down either of those roads, but I'd do either before I took out Dauntless.

Fair enough, Dauntless stays. Another possible downgrade is to replace Block with Juggernaut. But for now, I think 100k and your original stats is worth testing.

mattgslater wrote:Hmm... I could remove Dauntless from the Knights, drop them to 90k, and put in a 0-1 Champion option?
...
Another question: Vampire as Option on this team.
...
6/4/4/8 Egomaniac (2+ each drive or won't play), Hypnotic Gaze, Regenerate AS 130k.

A Vampire (for evil Noble teams) or a Champion/Paladin (for good ones) instead of the option of 2 Knights works, and it reduces the overall effectiveness of Knights for free. Each additional Stand Firm + Block player is more valuable than the last: it is possible that Knights wouldn't have to be 100k if there were only two of them. And a negatrait/disadvantaged ST4 player is good enough to fit the bill. I'd suggest a giant-killer type of Champion/Paladin, something like
6/4/3/9 Honourable, Dauntless, Regenerate 120k
(I've seen Honourable on (iirc) MBBL: leaves the pitch for the remainder of the drive if anyone on his team fouls)
(Regenerate in this case would be Resurrect, due to extreme holiness, or possibly due to a bishop in the crowd)

mattgslater wrote:I disagree completely about that best Throwers in the game bit ...

I just meant that they have non-doubles access to Pass, Accurate, Safe Throw, Nerves of Steel and Strong Arm.

mattgslater wrote:
Perhaps give the Squire Fend ... and the Page Jump Up
Hmmm... I had it that way originally, but a couple people noted that the Dodge/Jump Up combo is less useful than Dodge/Fend on a ST2 player.

That's why I recommended it

I was looking for ways to downgrade the team a little bit, while still keeping your design intact. But I think reducing the maximum number of Knights does that, so you can keep Fend on the Pages.

BloodBowlGuy · Post by **BloodBowlGuy** » Tue Apr 01, 2008 12:02 am

I like the idea of 0-1 Champion (good or evil), instead of rules for a good and evil champion (paladin/vampire). That way you have only one set of rules for the team.

tenwit · Post by **tenwit** » Tue Apr 01, 2008 12:05 am

It shouldn't matter, Matt's options rules give (usually) four different extra options for the team. If one is Champion/Paladin, and one is Vampire, then it is effectively no extra rules.

All it would change would be your play style. And maybe whether or not you have to practice your evil cackle...