Secret Weapon equivalent to KO?

Joemanji · Post by **Joemanji** » Wed Apr 02, 2008 9:09 pm

At the moment the Secret Weapon skill equates to a Badly Hurt. If you wanted a version similar to the variable ejection rolls of previous editions, why not simply equate a sending off with a KO? E.g.

Secret Weapon (Extraordinary)
Some players are armed with special pieces of equipment that are called
‘secret weapons’. Although the Blood Bowl rules specifically ban the use
of any weapons, the game has a long history of teams trying to get
weapons of some sort onto the pitch. Nonetheless, the use of secret
weapons is simply not legal, and referees have a nasty habit of sending
off players that use them. Once a drive ends that this player has played
in at any point, the referee orders the player to be sent off to the
dungeon to join players that have been caught committing fouls during
the match regardless of whether the player is still on the pitch or not.
Players sent off in this way will of course try to sneak back on to the
pitch. Roll a D6 before each drive for a player who has been sent off. On
a 4+ the player may return and play as normal.

Daefaroth · Post by **Daefaroth** » Wed Apr 02, 2008 9:31 pm

I'd be worried about the team breaking abilities of goblins with this rule. If you had a rostered B&C and Chainsaw, then induce another of each you could play them all at the start of the game. Then mathematically, you could average a return of two of them for every play. Carnage of that level could destroy a team in league play.

landrover · Post by **landrover** » Wed Apr 02, 2008 10:10 pm

Daefaroth wrote:I'd be worried about the team breaking abilities of goblins with this rule. If you had a rostered B&C and Chainsaw, then induce another of each you could play them all at the start of the game. Then mathematically, you could average a return of two of them for every play. Carnage of that level could destroy a team in league play.

Cool!

Jural · Post by **Jural** » Wed Apr 02, 2008 10:41 pm

I don't like it for deathrollers. The piece is too good and durable to play more than one drive. For goblins... I am not sure.

All in all, I think it's a bit too much of a boost, the few rostered Secret Weapons are pretty darn good as they are (although the support the Gobbo ones get is not that great!)

Darkson · Post by **Darkson** » Wed Apr 02, 2008 10:48 pm

A much better idea than the current rules.
I still hand-on-heart believe the old variable SW rolls were better though - anyone that thinks a pogo-stick is as likely to catch the refs eye as a deathroller...

Jural · Post by **Jural** » Thu Apr 03, 2008 1:37 am

Darkson wrote:A much better idea than the current rules.
I still hand-on-heart believe the old variable SW rolls were better though - anyone that thinks a pogo-stick is as likely to catch the refs eye as a deathroller...

Darkson and I disagree about this proposal being better than the existing rules.

But I totally agree with him that the previous variable SW rules are better than what we have now. Pogoers and Blunderbussers all took a hit. Stab is just too much.

Heck, I could even go for a 1-6 table if rolling two die and adding them together is overly complicated for the average Blood Bowl coach

Warpstone · Post by **Warpstone** » Thu Apr 03, 2008 6:21 pm

I like the old SW rolls better too. The SW spectrum goes from Pogo to Deathroller and it seems odd to penalize them all equally, whether it be a sending off or Joe's proposal.

Alternatively, how about connecting a SW's offensiveness to its game performance? If a SW scores a CAS (including fouls) or TD, pass a 4+roll to keep him. I'm not sure if 4+ is severe enough, so you could make it a 5+ roll with Bribes giving a +3 to the roll. The upshot of all this is that effective SW's can be taken off the pitch sooner (and the pogoer is no longer a joke).

Save the Pogoer!

DDogwood · Post by **DDogwood** » Thu Apr 03, 2008 6:56 pm

Why not just remove Secret Weapon from the Pogoer? The other SW's have the potential to cause a lot more damage; the Pogoer can only really do it through DP, which is likely to get him sent off the pitch for the game anyhow.

It strikes me as odd that the pogo stick is so readily banned, when the Dark Elves with daggers can go around stabbing people all day without penalty.

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Thu Apr 03, 2008 10:16 pm

I like a roll to save the SWs (see my threads in House Rules), but I don't like a roll every drive unless you're going to play with costing. Even that becomes problematic, though, with pieces like the Deathroller.

Ten out of ten for style, though, and for seeing something that needs a fix.

fen · Post by **fen** » Thu Apr 03, 2008 11:06 pm

DDogwood wrote:Why not just remove Secret Weapon from the Pogoer?

Yes! Join the movement now!

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Fri Apr 04, 2008 3:26 am

Tell me again what was wrong with Penalty Rolls? It's not like it was rocket science.

If you want to account for 100k Bribes, make the Bribe a re-roll (with no effect on actual AV comparison or Inj table in case of foul), and put the Penalty Roll down to 1d6, rolled with a target in mind (so high rolls can save your guy).

Deathroller: 5+
Chainsaw: 4+
Bombardier: 4+
Ball & Chain: 4+
Blunderbuss: 2+
Pogoer: 2+

Or something like that.

Except the Blunderbuss & Pogoer, it's a little easier to get ejected than 3rd ed, but you get the potential Bribe re-roll.

whitetiger · Post by **whitetiger** » Fri Apr 04, 2008 4:02 am

DDogwood wrote:Why not just remove Secret Weapon from the Pogoer? The other SW's have the potential to cause a lot more damage; the Pogoer can only really do it through DP, which is likely to get him sent off the pitch for the game anyhow.

It strikes me as odd that the pogo stick is so readily banned, when the Dark Elves with daggers can go around stabbing people all day without penalty.

Yeah, but Assassins with knives is no secret. Besides, it takes an act of Congress or direct intervention from God for an Assassin to actually hurt anybody.

And Matt, I like that idea. Give the secret weapon a chance to come back, but also really limits the heavier hitters.

Jural · Post by **Jural** » Mon Apr 07, 2008 8:01 pm

fen wrote:
DDogwood wrote:Why not just remove Secret Weapon from the Pogoer?
Yes! Join the movement now!

But wouldn't that make sense and be agreeable to everyone? How can you support such a daft proposal?

bouf · Post by **bouf** » Mon Apr 07, 2008 10:41 pm

DDogwood wrote:Why not just remove Secret Weapon from the Pogoer? The other SW's have the potential to cause a lot more damage; the Pogoer can only really do it through DP, which is likely to get him sent off the pitch for the game anyhow.

It strikes me as odd that the pogo stick is so readily banned, when the Dark Elves with daggers can go around stabbing people all day without penalty.

I'm on board! I don't see why a goblin with Leap is a SW while a Wood elf with leap is a celebrated super star!

Jural · Post by **Jural** » Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:09 pm

mattgslater wrote:Tell me again what was wrong with Penalty Rolls? It's not like it was rocket science.

It made things hard to quantify, I guess. How do you place the value of a piece which can only play one drive, but is very effective? It's pretty straightforward, you assume an average drive length and then cost the player fairly, then factor in how long he is on the pitch... Voila, a price.

If you instead have variable send-off rates, it becomes quite difficult to establish how long the player will be on the pitch, and the deviations from that value are considerable.

In LRB 5, it's more important that everything is cost correctly, so that was the simplest way to do it, I suppose.

I don't agree with the approach, but I believe that was the rationale.