Taking the same skill twice

[Papa Sebco]

I know that it is forbidden to take the same skill twice for a player. But here's a new coach who wants to take Extra Arms twice for his player and he says this isn't clearly written in the rules that this is forbidden.

According to us the words "new skill" in the improvement chapter insinuates that you can't chose a skill that you already have but that seems not to convince him. Is it written somewhere clearly in the rulebook (LRB 5) that you can't take a skill twice for the same player (as it was possible for some skills in 2nd edition for example) ?

Thanks in advance.

Post Scriptum : Concerning Extra Arms we can tell him that a player having one or more extra arms has +1 and no more, as written in Extra Arms skill description, so he can chose Extra Arms again but his player will remain having +1 and not +2, but this is a general question. I suppose he will try to take another skill twice if we can't prove him this is forbidden !

[Daefaroth]

I looked around for a specific quote on this but could not find one. I do agree with you that 'new' means a skill you don't already have. However, here are two points that may help.

1) The person who says that you can do something has the burden of proof. What I mean is, he has to show in the rulebook where it says that he can do a certain thing. The rulebooks are quite comprehensive, but are still finite, and may not cover every possible situation. The default is that if the rules do not explicitly say that you can do something, you simply can't do it.

2) You said he is a new coach? Refer them to the commissioner rule (LRB 5.0 page 24) and have the commish tell them they can't do it.

[Jural]

This is not forbidden in the rules, and the word "new" is all you have to go on.

However, it is certain that you can't use this or any skill in tandem with itself, so there is no effect in the additional skill.

I would say that if he really wants the skill, the commish says it is OK, and it isn't forbidden in the rules, then let him go for it. It's 20k of wasted team value, but that is his choice.

[Daefaroth]

However, it is certain that you can't use this or any skill in tandem with itself, so there is no effect in the additional skill.

My problem is, that with no mention of double skill one way or the other in the rulebook, your statement that skills don't stack with themselves is not obvious. Why not get double accurate for +2 to pass rolls, or double dodge to be able to reroll two different dodges on a single action.

No, I think much better to nip it in the bud and not allow double skills.

[Jural]

Direct from the rulebook-

Extra Arms (Mutation)
A player with one or more extra arms may add 1 to any attempt to pick up, catch or intercept.

It's pretty clear no matter how many times you pick up the skill, you only add the +1, right?

[Daefaroth]

Direct from the rulebook-

Accurate (Passing)
The player may add 1 to the D6 roll when he passes.

Which is not clear that no matter how many times you pick up the skill you only get +1.

I think you are just trying to be subtle and don't really understand the munchkin mentality. Do not give this type of player any kind of precedent to work off of for other skills, just shut him down immediately.

[Jural]

Direct from the rulebook-

Accurate (Passing)
The player may add 1 to the D6 roll when he passes.

Which is not clear that no matter how many times you pick up the skill you only get +1..

See, I take that to mean that if the player has the accurate skill, he gains a +1... not he gains a +1 for every time he has the accurate skill!

I think you are just trying to be subtle and don't really understand the munchkin mentality. Do not give this type of player any kind of precedent to work off of for other skills, just shut him down immediately

You're right, of course. It's probably best to shut this thing down immediately, as it can at best lead to a team with a bunch of useless skills, and at worst a munchkin fest... But maybe somewhere deep down inside I'm wanting a rules lawyer to choose extra arms twice (or accurate twice) and then find out afterwards that he just wasted an advance!!!

For me, that's a sweet satisfaction, when a munchkin reaches for the stars and burns off his wings!

[Ullis]

On page 26 of the rulebook, the New Skill -result in the improvement roll table looks like a specific term (or result), which is explained below. The explanation starts: "On any Improvement roll you may choose to take a skill from the Normal skill categories permitted for that player..." That is, the word New is only part of the results name. The improvement roll table could look like this:

2-9: A
10: B or A
11: C or A
12: D or A

Furthermore, on page 23, under Skills, you have: "1. All bonuses/modifiers from skills can be combined."

Now, this adds up to justified confusion. As others have pointed out, the rulebook does not directly state that you cannot take the same skill twice. However, most of the skills are written in a way that prevents stacking. The most usual wording is close to "...if the player has this skill...", which means that no matter how many times you have this skill, you still get the benefit once. This is reinforced by the ban on the use of multiple rerolls on one roll.

Accurate and Strong arm are different. Their wording adds up to "+1 on the roll". Why should this be forbidden? Why couldn't a human player be really good at throwing. He won't have block or sure throw, but boy, is he accurate.

[DoubleSkulls]

Would a BBRC ruling satisfy him?

You can only pick skills once!

I'll try to remember it for the next review.

[Xeterog]

people just don't understand the concept of "If it isn't stated in the rules, you can't do it."

The rules do not say you can take the same skill twice
The rules do not say you can't take the same skill twice.

since the rules are silent on the issue, you must assume that you cannot take the same skill twice.

[Jural]

people just don't understand the concept of "If it isn't stated in the rules, you can't do it."

The rules do not say you can take the same skill twice
The rules do not say you can't take the same skill twice.

since the rules are silent on the issue, you must assume that you cannot take the same skill twice.

People don't understand it because they think the rules DO SAY you can do it.

The rules say pick a skill. Extra Arms is a skill, even if you already have it!

There are other grey areas too, there are in all rules. For example, how do you know you can stab with multiblock? How do you know you don't have to go for it a third time to throw a second frenzied block when you have Frenzy and Sprint? The answer is, reasonable readings of the rules allow such actions. But nowhere in the rules does it state you can do either one.

[Stout Youngblood]

1) The person who says that you can do something has the burden of proof. What I mean is, he has to show in the rulebook where it says that he can do a certain thing. The rulebooks are quite comprehensive, but are still finite, and may not cover every possible situation. The default is that if the rules do not explicitly say that you can do something, you simply can't do it.

The rules infer you can't take a skill twice when they talk about Characteristic Increases (p. 26), "No characteristic may ever be increased by more than 2 points over its starting value or to a value greater than 10." So ST, MA, AG and AV increases may be taken twice but nowhere does it say you may take a skill twice, hence, you can't.

I looked around for a specific quote on this but could not find one. I do agree with you that 'new' means a skill you don't already have...

...Refer them to the commissioner rule (LRB 5.0 page 24) and have the commish tell them they can't do it.

In 2nd edition BB, you could take levels of skills. Obviously, that has been done away with. The rulebook does state a NEW skill, if you already have the skill, how is it a NEW skill to be taken?

The commish should have squashed this right away.

[irishman]

I see it as an American / European cultural difference. I had this argument with my roommate in college who was from Germany. This is grossly exaggerated, and not meant to offend. But...


In Germany its the thought process that says, if there isnt a law / sign / instruction that can say i can do it, I probably CANT. For example, if there is no sign that says "You can ride your horse on this trail", I probably cant ride horses here.

In America its the opposite. If there isnt a law / sign / instruction that says i CANT do it, then I will. For example, I will ride my dang horse anywhere I dang well please and if you dont like it, put a sign up.



I often see this dichotomy in rules interpretation between European blood bowlers and American blood bowlers. Its a cultural difference.

[Jural]

But GorTex and I are both Americans!

Then again, we have a vast cultural divide between us. Race? Religion? Sex? Political Affiliation? Stance on the issues? No, not that I am aware of.

But he likes dwarves and I don't!!!!! I'm guessing that explains it all.

[irishman]

But GorTex and I are both Americans!
But he likes dwarves and I don't!!!!! I'm guessing that explains it all.

I think its *HOW* he likes dwarves that makes the difference.