Vampires: If I'm going to bother, how should I?

SillySod · Post by **SillySod** » Mon Apr 28, 2008 1:35 pm

Gotta say that I'm a strong advocate of guard and probably dodge rather than thick skull.

Guards might not help keep them on the pitch directly but they do mean that your thralls need more opponents to cover them properly and the odd guard really opens some new options in your play.

fen · Post by **fen** » Mon Apr 28, 2008 1:55 pm

Guard seems somewhat redundant when you can eliminate assists with Hypno-Gaze. It is a potent skill, but not as important as 1 or 2 Thralls with Thick Skull (you don't need more than a couple) and Vampires can take it instead. So I'd leave taking Guard on the Thralls until the third or fourth one rolls doubles.

SillySod · Post by **SillySod** » Mon Apr 28, 2008 3:37 pm

fen wrote:Guard seems somewhat redundant when you can eliminate assists with Hypno-Gaze. It is a potent skill, but not as important as 1 or 2 Thralls with Thick Skull (you don't need more than a couple) and Vampires can take it instead. So I'd leave taking Guard on the Thralls until the third or fourth one rolls doubles.

If you're good at something then do it better. Hypnogaze isnt as good as guard for placing and removing assists, I find its best use is to remove excess dodges and make reaching certain positions possible. Often a hypnogaze will clear the way for a guard and a blitz. Guard has more power and is more reliable while hypnogaze gives the team a whole different option.

Guard is also quite nice in saving the lives of thralls, it makes them much better at knocking stuff over which therefore spends the next turn standing up instead of hitting them.

Skipper · Post by **Skipper** » Mon Apr 28, 2008 5:44 pm

I started my team with 2 vampires and 4 rerolls. I now have advanced to 6 rerolls (seems like overkill but really necessary in maintaining four vampires on the field) My original goal was to build the Thralls up first and not relly on vampires, but our league is extremely bashy and I lost three skilled up Thralls right away (and we are using LRB 6 proposed rules). This quickly left me behind the curve. I have since shifted to increasing my vamp count and have found pro is almost a god-send skill. The other players hate my pro-players as that extra possibility at a reroll really drives them nuts. This helps tremendously when I have a chance of rerolling either a bloodlust, hypnotic gaze, dodge, or block in a support role. If I absolutely have to make the reroll, I use my team reroll.

The problem with this approach is that it drives the team value up quickly giving even good teams some inducements and also means that the vampires get their speciality skills later. At the moment I've taken the tactic of giving only 2 pro and 1 is developing as my killer. The fourth has no skills. I've also taken to putting non-skilled vampires on the LOS in the attempt to keep a few of my thralls from getting demolished. This works pretty good as that extra Strenght and Armour Value really makes them survivable while not moving and tienng up the line.

I know this is against the general trend, but when your thralls die in droves, it has become the only option I had left that was viable.

Skipper

princevaliant · Post by **princevaliant** » Tue Apr 29, 2008 1:03 am

I can't comment on LRB5 since I don't have any friends that play the game in real life, and I'm not into play by email. That leaves me with FUMBBL, LRB4 rules. That probably makes my opinion worthless to most of you

Silly and I are opposites when it comes to Vampire Strategy. I always start with 3 vampires, though I have experimented and done very well starting with 4 vampires, 2 rerolls. The secret is learning to almost *never* use a reroll on OFAB. Just get plenty of thralls, and keep biting them. They're dirt cheap, and it's funny to SPLAT your own teammates. I have yet to have a 6 vampire team (seems a bit excessive), but my teams try to get 4 as soon as I have 4 rerolls, and then a 5th once I get 6 rerolls.

I'm a huge anti-Dodge advocate for Vampires, and prefer to just take as much Guard/SS as possible and break through my opponent's defences with that and Gaze. Because I Gaze so much (and usually have at least one Leaping Vampire), Pro is nice as a 4th skill or later - but never earlier. I don't like dodge because it's so annoying when Tackle linefodder can eliminate your skills, but I don't blame the overwhelming majority of Dodge Vampire advocates...hell, if you never face Tacklers, Dodge is probably more useful than Block.

But I only have over 200 matches coaching Vampires under LRB4 rules - what do I know?

In closing, I'd like to emphasize that there is no one 'right' way to coach Vampires. I've done well with a team that takes Guard and Pro on the first 2 skills. I have a team that only plays Dwarfs and Chaos Dwarfs and does well. The most important thing is not to fear BITING your team to ribbons, because the Vampires can perform miracle plays with or without the rest of the team once you get the hang of them.

Jural · Post by **Jural** » Tue Apr 29, 2008 2:46 am

princevaliant wrote:I can't comment on LRB5 since I don't have any friends that play the game in real life, and I'm not into play by email. That leaves me with FUMBBL, LRB4 rules. That probably makes my opinion worthless to most of you
...
But I only have over 200 matches coaching Vampires under LRB4 rules - what do I know? In closing, I'd like to emphasize that there is no one 'right' way to coach Vampires. ...

That is solid advice. I've seen two types of vampire teams work, the try and avoid OFAB type (load up on Pro) and the "Screw it, I'm biting a thrall and hypno-gazing types."

Both can suck if played poorly, or be above average in the right coaches hands.

The question I always have is whether it's best to go with Block, Guard, Mighty Blow (Bashing), etc or Dodge, Leap, etc.

So many vamp posts focus on Pro and Block, it's interesting to see what come next, or what a better choice may be.

SillySod · Post by **SillySod** » Tue Apr 29, 2008 4:21 am

princevaliant wrote:I don't have any friends

When it comes to skill selection I'd go for stuff which helps your re-roll situation first and then skills which help you with pinpoint strikes on the ball carrier or important players. I'll start by saying that leap is a skill I would definately avoid. Hypnogaze, dodge and a high agility should be enough to get you where you want to be. Leap is a dangerous skill which eats up alot of re-rolls (rather than saving them) and its main use (in my experience) is a leaping blitz on the ball carrier which is not something which combines well with OFAB.

I like block for obvious reasons, I prefer it over wrestle as a vampire is not fast as well as being a large physical presence on the pitch. I like a certain amount of overlap between vampires in my team because they are not too fast, with their stats they ought to be good in nearly any situation... I find that dodge helps them with that flexibility and makes them that bit faster. Unless you're playing in an environment where other teams are getting 3-4 tackle by TV150 or 5-6 tackle by TV200 then I'd always take dodge. Neutralising a group of vampires dodge with only a few tackle is tougher to do than you'd think... vampires have alot of tools at their disposal to get rid of the tacklers or leave them stranded. If the worst comes to the worst then you're at least forcing them to blitz/block primarily with the tacklers which is probably inconviniant for them.
I dont like pro until my 3rd or 4th vampire because I like pinpoint strikes on the ball and with these I want to be certain that my blitz happens so I'd end up ignoring pro anyway. Tackle is essential on at least one or two to put the fear of fear into gutter runners etc.... guard, sidestep, mighty blow take as you see fit. Doubles I'd completely ignore excpet for accurate on an agility 5 vampire (a godly combo).

Thralls I'd want block over wrestle for because again, they arent fast. Maybe a single one with wrestle/stripball especially if they have a higher movement or agility (and arent your ball handling ag4 thrall) but only if you can afford the luxuary. After block a mix of fend, DP, and the odd tackle... one should definately take kick because its so deadly with hypnogaze/vampire blitzes. Doubles go on leader (a thrall skill, not a vamp one) and lots of lovely gaurd.

Those are just my preferences... I said a few before but thats a more detailed summary with a bit more explanation.

One question for you all that you might enjoy.... which is the best stat upgrade on a vampire? +St is brilliant but I find +Mv to be equally useful and I'd be very tempted to rate 2 +Mv over 2 +St. +Ag is in another league again... better dodges, better throwing, reliable hypnogaze... it just keeps giving. Which is best?

Andromidius · Post by **Andromidius** » Tue Apr 29, 2008 6:25 am

I'd say Agility. Being able to dodge into tackle zones and pick up the ball is a godsend for any team. Though a good mix of all the stat increases are, of course, preferable.

Though I'd choose +1AV if it came around. AV8 feels a bit squishy when you know your opponant will start fouling as soon as one of your Vampires trips up...

~Andromidius

fen · Post by **fen** » Tue Apr 29, 2008 8:43 am

princevaliant wrote:I'm a huge anti-Dodge advocate for Vampires, and prefer to just take as much Guard/SS as possible and break through my opponent's defences with that and Gaze. Because I Gaze so much (and usually have at least one Leaping Vampire), Pro is nice as a 4th skill or later - but never earlier. I don't like dodge because it's so annoying when Tackle linefodder can eliminate your skills, but I don't blame the overwhelming majority of Dodge Vampire advocates...hell, if you never face Tacklers, Dodge is probably more useful than Block.

Yup, and well done for doing so. Mind you the electronic Dodge Vampire advocates are hard to take seriously because it's difficult to tell if they're willing to go up against teams with Tackle or not. It's a lot easier to duck teams with skills you don't want to face online as such I find the experiences of online players don't always translate when compared to tabletop.

I digress, not taking Dodge is an exceptionally solid decision when you have a Vampire team. Good call, much like the single Leaping Vampire. That's actually pretty powerful as well.

Andromidius · Post by **Andromidius** » Tue Apr 29, 2008 10:51 am

Leaping Vampires are really annoying, yes. The local Vampire team uses that to utterly ruin any caging attempts very effeciently.

And then the S5 Block Vampire eats things.

~Andromidius

grampyseer · Post by **grampyseer** » Sat May 03, 2008 1:07 am

Out of pure curiosity..has anyone had any luck with 6 vampires? If so, what skills did you take. How quickly do you manage to munch your way through 10 thralls? Did you laugh, or cry?

Secondly, If no one is using 6 vampires......why are 6 vampires still an option for the team????

SillySod · Post by **SillySod** » Sat May 03, 2008 6:20 am

When FUMBBL is back up (or before if you can find them) speak to EdgeDante or Gatts. I believe that both run pretty successful 6 man teams.

Warpstone · Post by **Warpstone** » Mon May 05, 2008 2:31 pm

grampyseer wrote:Secondly, If no one is using 6 vampires......why are 6 vampires still an option for the team????

Just started a new vamp team precisely because of the new experimental rule regarding thrall bites maxing out at a Badly Hurt. If it weren't for this rule, I would have stuck to 3-4 Vamps max. But, as long as I get enough winnings, I can see that fielding 6 vamps will be a realistic option down the road.

Skipper · Post by **Skipper** » Mon May 12, 2008 1:26 pm

I just went to 5 vampires after our last game. My opponents have begun targetting my Thralls specifically and I was spending more time protecting them than I should have been. My solution is to put more vampires on the field. I mean, lets face it, once the bashy teams start in on your thralls, you are going to be short handed very fast on almost every drive. I've opted to go with the tougher vampires in numbers as they are much more resilient *both on the pitch and after they are causultied (Apoth and Reg)). When I fail blood lust, I can evaluate the situation and either bite or put the vampire in the reserve box. This gives me the choice, not the opponent. Also, if the vampire takes a break (doesn't bite), I know I'm not loosing her for good and they'll be back next drive. Besides, I have a bunch more ready to carry on.

In the pro vs no pro debate, I'm torn. I currently have pro on a 2 vampires as a first skill and it has made them extremely useful and reliable (usually), however, it leaves me lacking in other skill areas (Ball handling, damagedealing, field contrl). The other three therefore, are now taking the direct skill approach. I'll be producing a hitter (Block, Mighty blow, guard), runner (sidestep, dodge, block), and a controller (guard, block, tackle, standfirm)

Now if only my thralls would last long enough to skill up to their first skill. So far I've managed to produce and keep the following (kick), (Block), (Agility, block), (and now a 10 roll which will probably be movement, frenzy, or fend, though I'm leaning towards movement)

While starting our season with almost all ties, I've now got into a cycle of win and loss reversals. Our league is pretty bashy, so usually whoever gets in the first few causulties starts to continue racking them up. Therefore, the first few turns tend to make a big difference in the outcome of the game.

SillySod · Post by **SillySod** » Mon May 12, 2008 2:13 pm

Skipper, what're you going for as the second skill with your pro vampires and would you rather have the pro's first or the direct skill route guys first?

I'm fairly confident I'll stink to blodge for my primary vamps but I'm considering trying out a pro style team or more likely a team with pro after the first 2 vamps are sorted. I'm tempted just to try it out but especially with the boosted LRB5 hypno gaze it feels like pro might be a solid secondary option.

So, what were you thinking? Dodge?