LRB5 Amazon Accounting.

Darkson · Post by **Darkson** » Mon May 12, 2008 2:56 pm

GalakStarscraper wrote:
plasmoid wrote:Short leagues, they do OK.
Tournaments not so much. IMO dwarfs are too popular a tournament choice to leave any room for amazons to do well.

Cheers
Martin
And yet Lucifier proves this opinion incorrect at every event he chooses to.

Galak

Not just Lucifer - Indigo and Lycos just off the top of my head.

PubBowler · Post by **PubBowler** » Mon May 12, 2008 3:16 pm

Darkson wrote:
GalakStarscraper wrote:
plasmoid wrote:Short leagues, they do OK.
Tournaments not so much. IMO dwarfs are too popular a tournament choice to leave any room for amazons to do well.

Cheers
Martin
And yet Lucifier proves this opinion incorrect at every event he chooses to.

Galak
Not just Lucifer - Indigo and Lycos just off the top of my head.

Not to mention Pippy, Pancico among many others.

mattgslater wrote: Amazons get a great deal on linos, and in return, get a weak deal on positionals.

4 Blodgers with GS access for 90k is not a weak deal.
Not by a long way.

Jural · Post by **Jural** » Mon May 12, 2008 5:16 pm

See, the tournaments I've played in have very few skill-ups, and I wonder if Amazons would do well in that environment?

But I have to agree that Amazons vs. Dwarves is not the horrible match-up it appears to be on paper. Good coaches can make up for it.

Besides, unlike elves, who should probably make 2-3 dodges every turn, Amazons shouldn't dodge as much each turn... meaning that while Dwarves will be heavy hitters on the line, they won't cause too much turnover with their tackle.

plasmoid · Post by **plasmoid** » Tue May 13, 2008 12:10 pm

Hi all,
Galak said (and Darkson elaborated):
>Not just Lucifer - Indigo and Lycos just off the top of my head.

Yeah yeah yeah. For every race, there are coaches who can make them look good.
But do they generally perform well? AFAIK, nope.
I also made the comment based on actuale recent decisions prior to the annual danish championships: One coach considered amazon, but were put off by the number of attending dwarf teams.

(BTW, top 4 was orcs, undead, wood elf, khemri - another hint that 2-1 grind is king (but wood elfs are queens

))

Jural said:

Besides, unlike elves, who should probably make 2-3 dodges every turn, Amazons shouldn't dodge as much each turn... meaning that while Dwarves will be heavy hitters on the line, they won't cause too much turnover with their tackle.

OK - I know that amazons can beat dwarfs.
And admittedly, zons shouldn't dodge like elfs, but the often have to rely on their mobility.
And turnovers isn't all. Having your AV7 players hammered into the ground all the time isn't exactly a treat.

Or to put it more bluntly. Cancel out dodge from the amazon roster, and what do you have?
A 6337 team with a few extra skills. You can't say that looks good.

Cheers
Martin

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Tue May 13, 2008 12:27 pm

And then High Elf go and win the Blood Bowl Martin ...

Darn tournaments never play nice when you want them to prove a point.

Galak

plasmoid · Post by **plasmoid** » Tue May 13, 2008 1:23 pm

Well - I'd say you were bedning my point a bit.

I've said that 2-1 grind is dominating. That's not to say that finesse teams can't win.
In my day to day league experience I just see a fair bit more grind success than finesse success.
Or would you say that a tournament result completely invalidates the point.

But never mind. This thread was about amazon.
I don't think they're a good tournament team.
They're a fine short league team.
They're not so great a long term league team.

And I think their blitzers seriously aren't all that.
I for one could see them with a big guy.
(But if it never happens than I'm not troubled. They're not on any kind of a must fix list. I just think that 60K for blodge is out of whack)

Cheers
Martin

plasmoid · Post by **plasmoid** » Tue May 13, 2008 1:31 pm

Admittedly, there were a fair number of amazon teams in the god end of the Blood Bowl this year.
Gotta say I found that surprising. Not that I consider them a bad team. I just haven't seen many do well in tournaments before this.

Cheers
Martin

Jural · Post by **Jural** » Wed May 14, 2008 12:40 am

GalakStarscraper wrote:And then High Elf go and win the Blood Bowl Martin ...

Darn tournaments never play nice when you want them to prove a point.

Galak

I hate it when reality won't bend to my whims. I'm beginning to think i wasted the 19.99 on a hard cover version of "You are Psychic!"

Jural · Post by **Jural** » Wed May 14, 2008 12:44 am

plasmoid wrote:
And I think their blitzers seriously aren't all that.
I for one could see them with a big guy.
(But if it never happens than I'm not troubled. They're not on any kind of a must fix list. I just think that 60K for blodge is out of whack)

Cheers
Martin

The thing is, leagues with Amazons tend to spawn lots of Tackle players. However, the Amazons are on to Block and Fend and other skills by then. So while they are at a disadvantage against Dwarves and Chaos Dwarves, I have never found that problem to progress as leagues continue. Instead, I've found the 0-4 blodging strength access players tend to become monsters, and the rest of the team really hammers elves and Skaven.

At the end of the day, I think Amazons trouble the speed teams as much as they are troubled by the Dwarves and Chaos Dwarves. Especially if the Amazons are able to mix in some tackle of their own.

whitetiger · Post by **whitetiger** » Wed May 14, 2008 2:05 am

That's been my experience against 'Zons. Early on, not a problem against my DE. But as they progress and all their blitzers get tackle and Mighty BLow, they become a problem.

Darkson · Post by **Darkson** » Wed May 14, 2008 5:06 am

plasmoid wrote:Well - I'd say you were bedning my point a bit.
I've said that 2-1 grind is dominating. That's not to say that finesse teams can't win.
In my day to day league experience I just see a fair bit more grind success than finesse success.

If you're a "finesse" team facing a grind team, just use the 2-1 against them. Exactly what I started doing last year at the BB (thanks Pippy!),and my Skav ranks rocketed (and it f's off dwarf players when you do it back to them!

).

plasmoid · Post by **plasmoid** » Sat May 17, 2008 8:47 am

Hi Darkson,

If you're a "finesse" team facing a grind team, just use the 2-1 against them. Exactly what I started doing last year at the BB (thanks Pippy!),and my Skav ranks rocketed

Yup. That's sound tactics!

I've also seen finesse teams try to 2-1 grind other finesse teams, if they've gotten an upper hand early on. And that can work too.

I also recommend that you acknowledge that the grinders don't want to score until turn 8. So don't bother covering their recievers on the early turns of the drive - they're just decoys who won't be getting the ball anyway.

And if they're on top of you - consider not fighting back for the 1st half. Nothing is worse than fighting a futile fight in the 1st half only to have your team so thoroughly demolished that you'll lose 2nd half as well.

So grinding isn't a broken mechanic. It's just good.
The thing is, many grind games aren't all that exciting.
If the game has to have a slant, then I'd prefer a slant towards more touchdowns (finesse, I guess).
I find those games to be a lot more fun than games where one side tries to make as little as possible happen.

Personal taste perhaps, but case in point:
Played a game with my rookie team against a 30TV overdog. He had the massive advantage, but still settled for a 2-1 grind because he figured it would be the sure thing.
And it was. It just wasn't very exciting.
I wondered why he didn't opt for something that would reap more fun and more SPPs - I think he could have beat me 4-2 rather than 2-1 if he wanted.

Ah well.
Cheers
Martin