Two skills on a Wardancer

[t3clis]

Sure, as posted earlier, in favour of strip ball as a skill on a WD... I'm against leaping in the middle of a cage and throwing 1/2 blocks as the most natural thing in the world

[FischerKing]

Hmm well i know i suck in playing Woodies.
But how can you get the ball away from a S4 player in a cage or from a S3 player with some guard in that cage.
Even if you cover all the caging players that they dont give assist your Wardancer still has to make a 1/2 dice block to get the ball free.

But maybe i just dont have found the magic tricks of woodies jet how to stop the opponent if the cage has already formed and contains either a S4 carrier or some guard in it.

The problem with a good cageing team is that once they are fully caged up they get hard to break or stop. Woodelves is a pretty good anticageing team though (better than skaven) but you godda play them to their strengths just like the orcs or chaos dwarfs plays to their strengths and cage up with guard. And what do you have? You have speed and you have agility, and you have to learn how to use these two really well and disrupt or even break the cage before it is formed. What you do is this: Kick deep in one of the corners with kick, setup one square next to the LoS with your Catchers (I have a setup were they cannot crowdsurf you with frenzy, its hard to get through and they cannot blitz the wardancers) let him have hes turn & maybe his quick snap (that actually might turn out to your advantage, but ofcourse its a gamble) and then get your team between his team and the few players that stands near his endzone with the ball. If you can, spread out your players in two rows with 2 squares apart so he cannot blitz through, that might not be perfect, but as long as you cut of lots of his players from the ball team, you can outnumber the cage he will be able to form and simply break it down by force, or cut of his guard players so a blitz for the next round is an option.

This tactics worked very well for me. What you do is to force your low ag opponent to pass the ball, probably with your interception, make some hard dodge rolls or cage badly and suffer a blitz on the ball. A skill like pass block on a catcher is good for this playing style, but dont overdo it, mostly block, diving tackle and side step are the best on catchers.
Its all about possitioning, this thing, and you are really playing the other coach, not so much his team as he can try to defend against it with good possitioning and you can try to find a hole.

Thats plan A:
1: Kick deep
2: Screen off the players with the ball
3: Blitz the ballcarrier and score by turn 2 or w8 for a better blitz at turn 3 or 4.

Plan B:
Work the cage, til you get good shot. Stay off his players and leave him 1 player to hit each turn (on the blitz) dont let the cage advance far downfield. Try to cut off some of his players with screens, and trap some in the tacklezones of your treeman. Once he makes a semibad possitioned cage or a cage with few players, attack it to break it down! attack the guard players, leave an elf in a tacklezone of a guard and blitz the other to leave your dancer near the ball, sometimes go all in, and put your entire team in the tacklezones of that cage. Force him to break out of that with hard dicerolls, then pickup the ball if he fails or blitz it.

Plan C:
The av 8 elven plan. If everything else fails, and you are left with a good number of players on the field, you can try to simply stop the cage from reaching the endzone by dodging your players 1 square out in front of it, and leave them in a screen in front of it so they cannot blitz any 1 single player and get the cage through. This is most likely to fail because of your av 7 and your lack of rr's for dodging, but sometimes its the only real plan and sometimes it works.

Plan D:
Winn by elven stalling: Hold your own score untill turn 5 or 6 by changing sides, dont make it risky and score if you cannot stall safely. Stop him from scoring in the 3 or 4 turns you leave him, take any good chance to steal the ball. He will stall and score in turn 8, then score back by a oneturn by subsequent pushing play.

On 2 dice against:
Do it only as a desperate thing, or if you can crowdsurf the ballcarrer with it, dont rely on it. If the ball is on, lets say a bull, and you get a good shot on him with the wardancer, it might be well worth it. Its only 44 % chance with strip against block, and around 68 % chance if the bull doesnt have block and there is a real risk of turnover, but remember that it is a 44 % or 68% chance to winn! If you allways play it safe with woodelves, and never takes chances in your defense, you dont use all their potential, simply.

[PubBowler]

Secondly take notice that strip ball is the only skill where such a block is even viable.

Not meaning to take your quote out of context but there a few situations that I would look to a 2dice against block without strip ball.

For example: vs strong slow opp (Black Orc/Mummy) with a Dwarf lino.

It's not a desperation play buy the benefits have to outweigh the risks.

[whitetiger]

There are occassions when you have to attack a cage. Late in a game, score tied, they have the ball and have a fully formed cage and are heading for the end zone. Then, do about everything Fischerking says, stay a square away from the front of the cage, hem them in and slow them down. But, then you have to break the cage to get to the ballcarrier. You have to attack a corner of the cage and break it off. Don't try to break a side of the cage. It's harder to do, especially if they have guard. take out a corner. Then the next turn attack the ball carrier. It's a risk. But it's that or lose the game.

[Ullis]

Just to put this the discussion into a more firm footing, here are some numbers:

2 die block against (with RR):

9,3 % : odds of falling down (with Block)

90,7 % : odds of getting ball loose (oppo does not have Block)

69,1 % : odds of getting ball loose (oppo has Block, you're still fallling down only on 9,3%)

Those are good odds! A Wardancer is in more danger just standing around the pitch, waiting for someone to blitz him. Mind you, they are with RR. Without a reroll the odds of falling down climb to 30,6%! This translates into a 69,4 % odds for getting the ball loose if the oppo does not have Block, and 45 % of getting the ball loose if the oppo does have Block. Respectable numbers even for desperation plays, especially if its your turn 7 or 8 so you don't have to worry about the imminent Foul as much.

What's more, a proven willingness to leap into a cage and take the 2 die block against forces your opponent to either play more risky or more conservatively, which is good for any defender. Of course, it also forces the opponent to use Sure Hands, but that's good as well.

The numbers above don't take the leap into account, but often you can get into position without leaping.

[PubBowler]

Excellent post covering Wood Elf Tactics

I have mixed feelings about FischerKing's post.

One: I'm saving it for when I play Woodies.

Two: I'm bribing Darkson to delete it as Woodies don't need the help!

[FischerKing]

Thanks guys

Just to put this the discussion into a more firm footing, here are some numbers:

2 die block against (with RR):

9,3 % : odds of falling down (with Block)

90,7 % : odds of getting ball loose (oppo does not have Block)

69,1 % : odds of getting ball loose (oppo has Block, you're still fallling down only on 9,3%)

Those are good odds! A Wardancer is in more danger just standing around the pitch, waiting for someone to blitz him. Mind you, they are with RR. Without a reroll the odds of falling down climb to 30,6%! This translates into a 69,4 % odds for getting the ball loose if the oppo does not have Block, and 45 % of getting the ball loose if the oppo does have Block. Respectable numbers even for desperation plays, especially if its your turn 7 or 8 so you don't have to worry about the imminent Foul as much.

What's more, a proven willingness to leap into a cage and take the 2 die block against forces your opponent to either play more risky or more conservatively, which is good for any defender. Of course, it also forces the opponent to use Sure Hands, but that's good as well.

The numbers above don't take the leap into account, but often you can get into position without leaping.

These odds with a rr is pretty darn good yes and thats well worth noting! But still, you godda consider the full action and you have other hard rolls. There might be some dodging for assists, there might be leaping and you godda pick up the ball and toss it away too were there might be catching and more dodging, so you really cannot count on having a rr on that one.

Odds without rr's on a 2dice against:
chance of skull: around 31 %
chance of stripping the ball off block guy: around 44 %
chance of stripping the ball off none block guy: around 68 %
chance of knocking the opponent without block over: 25 %

[Ullis]

These odds with a rr is pretty darn good yes and thats well worth noting! But still, you godda consider the full action and you have other hard rolls. There might be some dodging for assists, there might be leaping and you godda pick up the ball and toss it away too were there might be catching and more dodging, so you really cannot count on having a rr on that one.

You're right, but given that getting the ball loose will probably be your priority, you should definitely save the (possible) RR for that and not use it on anything prior to that. If you have to dodge for assists and fail there, you'll probably wait until next turn.

The leap is the most critical part. With AG4 you have a good chance of failing and spending the RR (even then its still 1/9). But once you decide to leap, you're almost certainly committed to the eventual block. When you're in the middle of the cage, you probably can't back out, unless you can decide to block someone besides the ball carrier hoping to get out of the cage with a push.

What happens after the strip is of course a different matter, but you face those same problems anytime you're on defence and get the ball from the opponent. If the ball ends up on lots of TZ's, then it might make sense to leave it there, and force your opponent to pick it up in his next turn.

[SillySod]

Secondly take notice that strip ball is the only skill where such a block is even viable.

Not meaning to take your quote out of context but there a few situations that I would look to a 2dice against block without strip ball.

For example: vs strong slow opp (Black Orc/Mummy) with a Dwarf lino.

It's not a desperation play buy the benefits have to outweigh the risks.

Sorry, I meant specifically to bump the ball free using a wardancer.... really you need strip ball for the 2D against block to be viable in all but the most desperate situation.

[mattgslater]

That kick deep, screen off thing works for all teams, btw. I do it with bashy teams specifically against Wood Elves and their ilk. When the Woodies drop their ball-guy back for protection and fan out for a two-turner (assuming they punch a hole or Leap a few guys over; if you manage to jam them on the line you just beat them up), you mark their guys, blitz one (Frackle/MB is great vs. Wardancers), and screen off the ball-carrier so he can't move up to throw quick and has to save a precious RR for the scoring attempt. Conversely, against bash, a hard-hitting offense will try a different tack (stuff the cage and let it turn into a brawl). So... pass rush is a technique designed for games with or against agility teams? Is that the rule?

That's one reason an Orc Thrower with Kick-Off Return is so valuable. With a little luck, you can get a TZ on the ball without burning an action, and then you have the guy free to pick up, move max distance and QP into the best cage in the game. You don't need a TRR, really (if you hit your cage, a failed catch is acceptable), so you can do all your blocks first. It's a rare Dwarf, CD or Undead team that will even try to QP into the cage, and while Khemri might give it a shot they're playing on much smaller odds. Humans can do it, but it's hard to compare Human cages to Orcs (though the Humans can easily turn a failed cagebreaker into a two-turn TD, while it takes some doing with Orcs). Orcs aren't just a good team for newbies: an advanced coach with an Orc team in a short season has a serious advantage, especially against speed defenses. In longer seasons, everybody can eventually do it and you just have to game for it.

[DDogwood]

90,7 % : odds of getting ball loose (oppo does not have Block)
69,1 % : odds of getting ball loose (oppo has Block, you're still fallling down only on 9,3%)

chance of stripping the ball off block guy: around 44 %
chance of stripping the ball off none block guy: around 68 %

This is why Wrestle is not a bad skill on an AG4+, Leap, Strip Ball player. You don't want to leave a Wardancer lying down in the middle of a cage, but if you can score on the same turn then your opponent won't get a chance to foul him

[whitetiger]

Yep, that's what I do as well. I try to get as many of my players into his backfield as he has. If I can play at least 3/4 of the game in his backfield, chances are I'm going to be able to score more than he is.

[FischerKing]

That kick deep, screen off thing works for all teams, btw. I do it with bashy teams specifically against Wood Elves and their ilk. When the Woodies drop their ball-guy back for protection and fan out for a two-turner (assuming they punch a hole or Leap a few guys over; if you manage to jam them on the line you just beat them up), you mark their guys, blitz one (Frackle/MB is great vs. Wardancers), and screen off the ball-carrier so he can't move up to throw quick and has to save a precious RR for the scoring attempt. Conversely, against bash, a hard-hitting offense will try a different tack (stuff the cage and let it turn into a brawl). So... pass rush is a technique designed for games with or against agility teams? Is that the rule?

I dont see this happening with a slow team against an agile team, really. Important to this strategy is good possitioning with lots of players far on the opponents backfield, and thats were speed and agility comes in. If an orc team should ever manage to screen off my thrower completely (think about how many players they need for that, and they have ag 2 str 4 blackorcs, its close to impossible) I just pass over them, the odds will still be heavily on my side and his defense will be completely off for the next 2 or 3 turns if it succeeds.

Sometimes I do it against agile teams with agile teams too, depending on my passblock and if his thrower has safe throw or not. I allways threaten the ball with a player or two. But elven matchups are completely different and requires diffferent strats.

Ofcourse you have to threaten the ball with one of your fast players, thats what you mean right? or else the elves can just stall as long as they want.

For this to work you need an agility team, and prefferably a quick one. Thats how I see it.

That's one reason an Orc Thrower with Kick-Off Return is so valuable. With a little luck, you can get a TZ on the ball without burning an action, and then you have the guy free to pick up, move max distance and QP into the best cage in the game. You don't need a TRR, really (if you hit your cage, a failed catch is acceptable), so you can do all your blocks first. It's a rare Dwarf, CD or Undead team that will even try to QP into the cage, and while Khemri might give it a shot they're playing on much smaller odds. Humans can do it, but it's hard to compare Human cages to Orcs (though the Humans can easily turn a failed cagebreaker into a two-turn TD, while it takes some doing with Orcs). Orcs aren't just a good team for newbies: an advanced coach with an Orc team in a short season has a serious advantage, especially against speed defenses. In longer seasons, everybody can eventually do it and you just have to game for it.

Kick Off return seems to be designed to counter this strat yes If they dont pass in their first turn though, you can still put preassure, and though not as hard a preassure its still the best strat.