Journeymen for LOS and thier uses? (LBR 5.0)

[final fortune]

My friends and mine are having a discussion about the journeymen Rats for a skaven team. We just started a new league (8 rounds and then playoffs) and wanted to hear what you guys can give of advice.

Im only planning on 11 skaven players from the start because if a linerat or 2 dies ill just get the free journeyrat to replace the LOS... is that a good choice? is it a viable tactic for a new skaven team?

Team look likes:
1 thrower
4 linerats
4 Gutter runnes
2 Storm vermin

3RR
0FF
APO (edit: forget to write it)

Total of 1mil

Thanks all

[Ullis]

I'd definitely go with just 11 players at first. Maybe look at ditching the thrower (he's not very good in a Skaven team anyway) and one Gutter Runner (GR) for an apo (I hope that adds up to 50k savings). With AV7 an apo is often as good as a reserve player. The GR's are at least as good in throwing as a Skaven Thrower even without the Pass skill. They run faster, so they'll get in shorter ranges easier, and of course, their AG is 4. Three GR's should be enough for offence and defence as well.

The linerats are expendable and you shouldn't care whether they're journeymen or your regular players. Don't even give them names to minimise the risk of getting attached to them.

Start developing the GR's with defence in mind. Getting 16 SPP on a GR is a breeze and Wrestle (or Block) + Strip Ball + MV 9 = win. Make the first GR to roll 10 your one-turner.

[darren woodward]

One Turn Scorer? Why? Where's the fun in that

I never bother with Throwers but a short passing game can be useful (easily done with GR too of course)

[wesleytj]

I agree that 11 players to start is fine, but I disagree with Ullis about throwers not being useful. The thing is that they can free up the Gutter Runners to wreak havoc on the other team up near the line, instead of sitting back to get the ball.

Now that you don't have to worry about FF as much, you can actually make a pretty good 11 rat roster that has it all:

2 Throwers 140
4 Gutter Runners 320
2 Blitzers 180
3 Line Rats 150
3 RR 180
30k for FF or CL or AC or save for apoth

Then all you have to save up for is an apoth and the Rat Ogre.

That roster is tough for most other tv100 teams to cope with. Lots of speed, Gutter Runners all over the place. Alternately, if you like playing a little crazy, you could try to work a rat ogre into the starting lineup. I've done that for TV100 tourneys and done pretty well.

1 Thrower 70
4 Gutter Runners 320
2 Blitzers 180
1 Rat Ogre 160
3 Line Rat 150
2 RR 120

Like I said, it's a riskier roster, but it can be fun too. The Rat Ogre helps control the line, as long as you don't count on him for anything (never blitz with him), helps keep rats alive, and even gets a cas now and then to help keep the numbers more balanced. That in turn makes those gutter runners (still the heart of your team) even more potent.

But only 2 RR is rough. In the tourney, of course, you can give leader to the thrower, so you're back to 3, but in league play you have to build to that.

As far as development, I agree that block is generally the first skill to give them, then I tend towards sidestep, as it helps keep them alive AND makes them better on defense. I also try to get one Leap, it really alters the way your opponent has to defend you, and as Ullis said, build a one turn scorer if you get the opportunity.

Blitzers need Guard first, it is the main reason you buy them really. After that, skills like Tackle, Dauntless, MightyBlow, and Juggernaut are nice.

I specialize my throwers in league play - one for offense and one for defense. The offensive one gets Accurate and Kick Off Return, on Doubles get Extra Arms to pick up on 2's. The Defensive one gets Leader and Block, as well as Kick if you didn't give it to a linerat already. Doubles go with Big Hand to pick up the ball in tackle zones. Always wanted to try Hail Mary Pass on that thrower too, but never got around to it. Just throw the ball to the opposite end of the field and count on your speed to beet the opponent to the ball, or at the very least make them start over on their offense, but haven't tried it yet.

Linerats generally get Block and Fend if they're lucky enough to live long enough to get 2 skills. On doubles I'd consider Foul Appearance.

[stashman]

Skaven throwers are good! But I did a Gutter Runner too a "thrower" with Accurate on a double and the I got Ag5 and my next double I took Safe Throw.

BUT he does'nt have PASS and thats a big diffrence. If you loose the reroll on a pick-up or a pass, then you can still fail the catch roll! (if you don't have catch on a gutter runner)

Build up atleast one thrower, and atleast one gutter with catch. The one with catch will always be tied up, and thats when you run the gutters, outplaying the opponent.

Skavens are fast, can pass, and give some bashing! Play them sneaky, sacrifice your linerats, keep the positionals in health.

Skavens are one of the best teams, but at higher TV when opponent gets inducements, the will struggle, becuse og AG3/AV7 no agility skills.

The team is superb at TV180-220, after that it will be harder to win. I have a skaven team that has taken alot of nigglings and that will hurt in the longrun, and with high TV its hard to get cash. I have BIG problems to get a new ratogre! Two has already died, and the cash is running low.

God Luck and hope for the Horned Rat to save you

[Ullis]

Okay, my ideas on getting the apo weren't really needed, as one was already included in the roster. Anyway, with the apo included, I'd go with the lineup in the original post. Two throwers is overkill. Having the apothecary from match 1 is good as those GR's are a fragile bunch, especially without Block or Wrestle or anything. On top of that, almost anyone can beat them up because they have ST2, although Dodge helps there.

I started with a Rat Ogre, 4 GR's, 3 RR's but only one Storm vermin. On hindsight I think that was a mistake as the Storm vermin are really important players. The Rat Ogre was next to useless at first, but after 3 cas he got Block and that makes him a priceless asset to a Skaven team.

[DDogwood]

2 Throwers 140
4 Gutter Runners 320
2 Blitzers 180
3 Line Rats 150
3 RR 180
30k for FF or CL or AC or save for apoth

Final Fortune's roster is better - it's not critical to have a thrower on the starting lineup, but having 2 is overkill. Not having an apothecary makes the team even more vulnerable to unlucky casualties in early games.

As far as using journeymen on a Skaven team - it's totally worth it. Most Skaven linemen are just going to be sacrificed to the LoS at some point anyhow, so why not use a free one to do it. Loner won't cause you that many turnovers, and I'd rather pay 50k for a journeyman with an MVP than a lineman with 0 SPPs.

[ulvardar]

Mmmmmmmm,


I have to disagree with your point of view. Ok, having just 11 players is enough, and the apo and 3 RR are not bad, BUT.....

1.- Linerats are there to be punished. That's true. They have AV 7, so having just 3 or 4 of them means that, if 2 are injured along the game, you will have to put blitzers on the LOS, something you really don't want.

2.- You want to play the running game. That's easier if you have more players than your opponent. Along the game, you will find moments when you have a juicy player (wardancer, werewolf, minotaur) ready to be fouled. That's a task for a linerat! So... would you foul with a GR or blitzer?


I prefer to start with 13 players, no apo (sometimes he's useless), no rat ogre. 4 GR, 2 blitzer, 1 thrower and 6 linerats. If some of them get injured, i can replace and have 11 rats, while my opponent has 8-9 players (if not really heavily armoured).

That helps me to cover in defence, and lend a lot of assists in second time.

But... hey, skaven are wonderful, each one can play them every way he likes

[ulvardar]

Ah, and skaven throwers are awesome!


Just because they can take the great Leader skill. Use them as a skilled linerat once you have used the leader RR.

[wesleytj]

Hey man, to each their own. I like to put the best 11 rats out there that I can and take it how it comes. I can play shorthanded so losing a few is no big deal. I've always played elves and they HAVE to start teams at just 11, so that's just something I can handle and am used to.

Other people would prefer to have a bench; that's cool too. I've certainly been burned in the past, both in leagues and tourneys, by a few unlucky casualties early in the game that just turn out to be too much. But there are other times where having all the skills out there has really be a boon too.

Same with the crazy rat ogre roster. There have been times when a poorly timed 1 on the wild animal roll has lost me the game. But there have been other times when ST5 and the Prehensile Tail have been game winners too.

There are tradeoffs either way. Find what works for you and go with it.