Orcs Vs Elves?

[bouf]

I'm starting a new Orc team for my leagues third season.

It appears that there will be a great deal of "Elfish" teams starting up as well... the way our ranking system works should see me in the same division as all there Prancing Poofs.

At least One Pro Elf, One (maybe two) High Elf, maybe one darkie too...

Obviously I'm going to need a lot more tackle than I'd origionally intended, but what other tips do you guys have???

I've always had trouble with elves and get so completely frustrated playing them... Cage, Cage, Cage is the only thing I can think of... maybe a few extra Pile On/Mighty Blow fellas???

[Jural]

As a Dark Elf coach, the following skills make Orcs more difficult to deal with:

1) Tackle
2) Kick-Off Return
3) Guard
4) Stand Firm
5) Mighty Blow
6) Dirty Player
7) Frenzy

Block I didn't include. Off the top of my head, you should shoot for this line-up to beat elves. Note, I don't develop offensive blitzers on my orcs, they are all defenders.

Troll- Guard, Stand Firm Doubles= Tackle

Black Orc Blocker 1&2- Block, Mighty Blow, Tackle Doubles = Diving Tackle
Black Orc Blocker 3&4- Block, Guard, Stand Firm (Ignore Doubles)

Blitzer 1&2- Tackle, Guard, Mighty Blow
Blitzer 3&4- Mighty Blow, Frenzy, Piling On Doubles= Jump-Up

Thrower 1 &2- Kick-Off Return, Block, Accurate

Lineman 1- Kick, Block, Tackle Doubles= Side Step
Lineman 2 and 3- Dirty Player, Try not to get skill 2!

[Craigtw]

Unfortunately, the best advice for orcs vs elves is the most obvious: hurt them! Do not try to outscore them, rather focus on out-casualtying them, and then they will not have anyone left to score!

One solid piece of advice is to kick to them even when you win the kick-off. If played properly, they should score on you on turn two or three, and sadly to say there is little that you can do about it. But when they then kick to you, form you cage and move slowly up the field. Beat them, punish them, grind them into the ground and kill as many as you can, all the time ensuring that you are going to be able to score on turn eight.

Then in the second half they are kicking to you (hopefully with a few less players), and then you form your cage and move slowly up the field. Beat them, punish them, grind them into the ground and kill as many as you can, all the time ensuring that you are going to be able to score on turn eight. This will leave them one turn to score, which is difficult (and possibly impossible) to do and will all but ensure you the victory.

As for more tackle, wait to see how they are developing. If there is not an abundance of dodgers, then you may want to get a couple of tacklers, but then stockup on skills like Piling On and Mighty Blow. That will help you in your goal of hurting those panzees!

Hope this helps.

[whitetiger]

The theory of bash teams against agility teams is to beat the crap out of them in the first half and you'll win in the second half.

When you kick to them, either use your blitzers to hang back and play your defensive backfield or go the exact opposition and charge into their backfield. Don't go half way. One or the other.

[bouf]

As a Dark Elf coach, the following skills make Orcs more difficult to deal with:

1) Tackle
2) Kick-Off Return
3) Guard
4) Stand Firm
5) Mighty Blow
6) Dirty Player
7) Frenzy

viewtopic.php?t=24881

You can see from the above post that I intended to start off with Scads of Stand Firm. I'm still thinking that this may be the way to go as I can really ruin escape attempts by denying pushbacks.

All Blitzers will have tackle as 2nd Skill or at worst third.

I think based on your advice I may need more Guard...

I'm traditionally not a good cage monkey and haven't played my Good Ol' Orcs in yonks... This will be a Good Hard Challenge Me thinks.

Thrower 1 &2- Kick-Off Return, Block, Accurate

I'm pretty keen on HMP at the moment... I figure that a Wr-ackler can disposses you of the ball and then me thrower can lob it to Mars without an interception. Plan it right and I can split my opponents defence and maybe stretch my ST advantage.

[tenwit]

Butbutbutbut you're my Slann hero! How can you abandon me like this! Plus, with Slann Catchers, Pass Block and Catch, they'll never pass again... muahahahah!

[bouf]

Butbutbutbut you're my Slann hero! How can you abandon me like this! Plus, with Slann Catchers, Pass Block and Catch, they'll never pass again... muahahahah!

It's pretty hard to leave the Slann Behind. But The Orcs are calling. The Summs had made it to the 1/4 Finals in BABBL and were beaten by a classy Skaven Side. I killed two of the Best guys on his team and then two more to make sure he will struggle to get past the Semis!!!

I just don't have the disposable income to get the Minis I need.... I've been sitting on that Blog, swearing up and down that I'll buy the minis at the end of the week... But at the end of each week I'm still broke!

I have the Orc Minis and they're unpainted... I'll come back to the Slann, but right now it's all Green!

[mattgslater]

I think of Orcs differently from others. I think your job is to turn the ball over and force them to line up. Recovered KOs on the elves' part is actually a good thing for you, especially early-on, as it's Cas you're really looking for. So giving up a score on turn 2 and then scoring in turn 8 is about as good as taking the ball away and scoring in turn 8 if you do some damage on the line, but not nearly as good as taking away and scoring on turn 3 or 4, even though you won't get the free hits for kicking. When your opponent receives, they'll probably be forced to play for the two-turner, hopefully either yielding you a defensive score (it doesn't matter if they can answer with a one-or-two-turner at that point) or time to attempt an answer yourself. So, when in Elftown, do as the elves do and score early and often!

Three skills that really matter to Orcs against elves: Stand Firm, Tackle and Grab. Get two SF Blitzers as cornerbacks and two Tackle Blitzers (or one Tackle and one Grab if Pro Elves are at hand) as safeties and pressuring OLBs, and you've got them handled. If there isn't much ST out there, you can just ignore Guard, instead getting Block on BOBs and using them to open up assists. Start with a Troll right away: his early impact against undeveloped line-sacrifices (and the SPP that entails) is too good to pass up.

Except maybe for shooting for a Tackle/Grab guy, you should look for MB or Frenzy on every Blitzer as a second skill. Tackle across the board will slow your progression down: you need to be able to put a guy on hold in the TD rotation when he breaks 16 SPP, and you want him to continue developing while he's not playing receiver, so he needs to get those Cas results until he can make it to 25 and, thus, back in the TD rotation (actually, with Mighty Blow or Frenzy, you can put him in the TD rotation at 23). An exception is if a Blitzer takes all season to go up twice: then give him Tackle.

A great edge Orcs have over other bash teams vs. Elves is their Throwers. Never forget that you can QP into a cage. Kick-Off Return is huge for this guy, and Accurate ain't so bad either. A second Thrower is also a good bet, as that gives you some more ball-coverage and a place for Leader.

[Aliboon]

I think your blitzers will be key-i'd get 2 with tackle and MB first off and 2 to get guard first, then probably MB too.

I think you're right in the cage tactic (with the thrower as the carrier), but make sure you have a guard on opposite corners so that any leaping, strip balling elves (which are sure to be developed) have a 2d against them.

Kick off return would probably be my first choice for the thrower-the way the elves will beat you easiest is if you can't secure the ball and they swarm your backfield.

I disagree with Matt here and think that a well planned, methodical grind will be your best way to win-you should kick, then hopefully they'll score in a couple of turns, then you should take the rest of the half to score. Then you take the 2nd half to score. You'll rack up CASs along the way.

The problem with this method is that if you fail and get turned over, then you've gotta speed up and then more mistakes are likely and you could end up losing by a few TDs.

[Der_Doodle]

Ok sorry for getting of topic but i read alot of Football slang i dont understand here.

Is there anyplace where i can inform myself about those Offensive Lineback (guess thats OLB), Cornerback, and i can imagine what a safetie is but i am not sure if it is the same as it is in the football language

[mattgslater]

I talk primarily in D terminology. It's very useful once you get it, but it has its limitations. Football offense is a little less relevant: though you can pick out the line positions (Center, Guard, Tackle), plus Tight Ends, Wide Receivers and Fullbacks, BB doesn't really differentiate Halfbacks from Quarterbacks from Kick Returners, at least not within the context of a given team. There's also frequently no difference in BB between a Tight End and a Fullback, because most defenses use tightly-clustered 3-man fronts. Of course, that's becoming more and more true in the NFL, too, as Fullbacks start to see less action in favor of 2-TE sets.

Defensive ends: the guys on the outside of the line. Usually Linemen or Blockers in BB.

Defensive tackle, nose tackle: the guy(s) on the inside. Usually Linemen, Blockers or Big Guys.

Outside Linebacker, Inside Linebacker: just what it sounds like: depending on the setup there are frequently 3-4 of them, but sometimes only 2, and sometimes none in a deep defense. They back the line. In BB, typically two linebackers will be "blitz-targets" blocking off strategic holes, and one or two will be there to stop up the middle or protect the cornerbacks, depending on the defensive structure. The OLBs are the ones closest to the WZ, and the others are ILBs. OLBs are frequently Blockers or Linemen, while ILBs tend to be Blitzers, Linemen, Throwers or Big Guys.

Safety: guys ready to blitz a receiver or move to provide a key asst vs. cage. If your defensive structure is designed to protect players against the blitz, those guys are probably safeties. Frequently Safeties are Throwers, Catchers or Blitzers.

Cornerback: guys who are placed to shut off the wide zones. Usually Blitzers.

[mattgslater]

Ok sorry for getting of topic but i read alot of Football slang i dont understand here.

Here's what I'm saying.

Code: Select all

--- --- --- ---|--- --- DE  DT  DE  --- ---|--- --- --- ---
--- --- OLB ---|--- ILB --- --- --- ILB ---|--- OLB --- ---
--- CB  --- ---|Sft --- --- --- --- --- Sft|--- --- CB  ---

=

-- -- -- --|-- -- BO TR BO -- --|-- -- -- --
-- -- BZ --|-- BO -- -- -- BO --|-- LM -- --
-- BZ -- --|BZ -- -- -- -- -- TH|-- -- BZ --

[DoubleSkulls]

For me the crucial skill development variation here is around the throwers & blitzers.

Blitzers - Frenzy or Tackle followed by Mighty Blow is really useful. Piling on 3rd Doubles are either diving tackle or dodge. I'd be tempted to have one or two blitzers develop as Guard/Stand Firm just for annoyance value, but 4 tackle/mighty blow will be much scarier for them to face. However you need to ensure you've enough guard to protect ball carriers from 1 dice leaping blitzes. So a lot will be about how quickly the BOBs skill up.

Throwers probably really need Block and Kick Off return on one. That would be your primary ball carrier and is designed to survive the war dancer analogues by being able to get them even in the cage. The 2nd thrower I'd be tempted to develop more into a long range passer since you are much more likely to need quick scores against flair team than bash. So when you fail to stop them scoring - but they take 4/5 turns over it you need to be able to respond. Doubles would be dodge on the runner and strong arm on the passer (since you are very probably doing a long passing game).

This also means goblins have a marginally higher value as both receivers and potentially defenders. Sidestep & diving tackle are very annoying for elves to play against. However elves will target them too - and being players down against elves is very very bad.

Trolls still get guard/stand firm and block on doubles. In an elf heavy league I'd be more tempted to not bother with the troll at all, since speed and reliability will be more important and you will have to spread out making Really Stupid more of a liability.

BOBs still Guard/Block first. Guard still first on the first pair to skill up, the 3rd & 4th to skill up can probably take block first. If you ever get to a 3rd skill then mighty blow is more important than stand firm since being able to damage elves is more important then frustrating them when they hit (which won't be often). Alternative 3rd skill would be tackle to reduce the dodging away. Ignore doubles or diving tackle.

[Warpstone]

One solid piece of advice is to kick to them even when you win the kick-off. If played properly, they should score on you on turn two or three, and sadly to say there is little that you can do about it. But when they then kick to you, form you cage and move slowly up the field. Beat them, punish them, grind them into the ground and kill as many as you can, all the time ensuring that you are going to be able to score on turn eight.

I think Craigtw's spot on. If you can outmuscle a team, but not out-maneuver them, kickoff first. Try to hit and soak up the elves at the LOS but know that even if you play well that they will still likely score if they make their routine rolls. This should be the elves' first and last drive.

Pound them at the line but remember to keep a few players off the line when receiving in order to drop back into a "pre-cage" in case you muff the pickup. Don't worry too much about taking risks to rack up CAS. The elves will try to free up the ball from your cage, so patrol with blitzers as your killing machines and man-markers. Done right, the elves will be just as prone to getting hurt from failed dodges and GFI's as from your bashing.

[mattgslater]

Generally, for bash, that's all good advice. For Orcs in a speedy league, you can actually build to make it HARD HARD HARD to score on you in two turns (except for Woodies; for them, it's just ordinary hard). It's all about Stand Firm: SF Blitzers on the corner are 44.4% resistant to a 2d blitz, rather than a mere 11.1% for Blitzers without Stand Firm. (For a Blodge/SF Blitzer, it's more like 69.2% resistant!) That's a quadrupling of the chances to prevent the quick score, as the opponent can't try to break through up broadway -- both your blitz-me linebackers are ST4 and 1/2-die or 1-die blocks are not exactly the popular course of action for elves. Even better, your elven oppo almost certainly WILL NOT RR a failed breakthrough attempt unless it yields a skull. If you can hold them at the line, that's when the bodies start mounting. It won't always happen: sometimes you'll give up the two-turner. But if you can make it about trying to break through, you can maul them until you've cherry-picked the easy casualties, then score score score.

Definitely try to kick first: in that, Craigtw and Warpstone are right. But if you receive first, that's ok, as you get the first knock in against the line (a big deal vs. Woodies and Pros -- loosening the line in the first half is how you nix the Dancers/Blitzers/Catchers in the second half). You might even want to receive first if you know your oppo can't handle your bash. That's one of the things that makes Mighty Blow so cool.