3 ST 5, 4 ST 4 Orc team

[jammydodger]

ok, now this might seem like a stupid question, but i'm having difficulty running my orc team: http://www.irwilliams.com/ecbbl/team_viewer.php?id=376.
basically they have accrued 4 +ST bonuses in their career, two on the thrower, 1 on a black orc and 1 on a line orc. the problem is, as the team has gotten 'better' i keep doing worse. how should i be using this team to max potential, especially the ST!

(and before anyone asks, all the skill rolls have been done with my opponent for the game present, etc. i've just gotten extremely lucky (different dice too! including using my opponent's dice))

team:

bob: block
bob: nothing
bob: st 5, block
bob: block
blitzer: guard, stand firm
blitzer: dodge
blitzer: tackle, strip ball
blitzer: guard, mighty blow
thrower: st 5
line orc: st 5
goblin: nothing
troll: nothing

i was planning to develop the blodger into a second sweeper, keep them both near my own endzone (i continually get scored against by people breaking away with the ball), using the two guarders and the goblins as a 'shield' who can break away the turn before i attempt to score, resulting in passing options, whilst the 4 bobs and the thrower cage and grind. not sure if i should use the troll (stupidity sucks, esp. when you don't _need_ the st).
any advice would be really welcome.
jammer / cws

[Ullis]

What kind of a defensive setup do you use? Who do you put on the LOS? How do people break through those players?

[Skipper]

I'd say to start loading up with guard on your future advancements. Our orc player controls the center of the board with guard. With your strength advances, you would probably dominate the physical game.

Skipper

[stormmaster1]

guard and mighty blow. With so much strength you must have an easy time sending opponents to the ground. A little more mighty blow may be needed to keep them there and create more space. Guard will make your blocking game a piece of cake and make your opponents turns difficult to get any sort of blocks.

On defence place your team so the only way through is via a ST5 player. Again the main thing is to make life difficult for your opponent. If you can contain them and keep a safety back while surrounding them with a big green wall you should have a pretty decent defence most of the time.

[tenwit]

The ST4 lino (I guess that's supposed to be ST4.. you say you got 2ST on only the thrower) is begging to be frenzy/wrestle/tackle. Use him on defensive drives to break the cage.

With the extra 200k TV in ST you're carrying, I'd recommend dumping the troll, unless you enjoy TTM. With 2 ST5 (thrower, BOB) and 4 ST4 (3 BOB, lino) you just don't need a Really Stupid player.

Get your other thrower for P skills (Leader, Accurate). The one you have now will be used as a sweeper (defense) and ball carrier (offense). Get him block and NoS, and he can be the guy in your cage. A last-minute Hand Off or Pass from him can spread the TDs around. You can also feel fairly confident about running without a cage.. this guy just needs one or two orcs to cancel assists, and noone's going to touch him.

Get guard on a few more players, but get Stand Firm first. You need at least 2, probably 4 to make your defensive LoS sturdy, and you have enough high ST players to limit yourself to blocking with just those guys for a few games, until you have enough Stand Firm. Mighty Blow is a luxury. It'll get you more SPPs, but your team already has enough.. you can afford to skill up slowly from here, so long as you win all the games.

Ask Matt about defensive LoS setups

[mattgslater]

Or dig through this forum.

[PubBowler]

The ST4 lino (I guess that's supposed to be ST4.. you say you got 2ST on only the thrower) is begging to be frenzy/wrestle/tackle. Use him on defensive drives to break the cage.

With the extra 200k TV in ST you're carrying, I'd recommend dumping the troll, unless you enjoy TTM. With 2 ST5 (thrower, BOB) and 4 ST4 (3 BOB, lino) you just don't need a Really Stupid player.

These are the key things in my opinion.

Although I'd go Wrestle, Tackle, Strip Ball (Break Tackle on doubles) on the lino.
Cage breaker.

[stashman]

team:

bob: st 5, block - GUARD

blitzer: dodge - TACKLE or Sure Hands

blitzer: tackle, strip ball - JUGGERNAUT

thrower: st 5 - BLOCK and then Kick-Off Return

line orc: st 4 - BLOCK or Wrestle (to put down cages)

troll: nothing - Don't kick him! Guard then Stand Firm (just leave him on LOS)

The most exiting players. Hope you get more stats increase!!!! so you never ever gonna get Block!!!

[mattgslater]

I think you should keep the Troll. That way, you can have 3 ST5 Linebackers!

[mattgslater]

Maybe try a 3-5 defense, with the Thrower moved from safety on one side or the other to back up the line as "Mike" linebacker, one behind the nose tackle. That lets you put the three schmuck BOBs on the line (until one of the Block Guys skills again and gets Stand Firm, and then you're a killer) and have a ST5 Thrower ready to pounce wherever. Then take that Tackle/SB guy and put him directly behind the Thrower.

Hmmm... you don't have a place to get one, but that defense plus a kicker is just disgusting: if you know you're going to kick shallow, you know you can just run them over and take the ball. There's a thread somewhere on Orcs with Kick. Normally I'd say it's skill #2 for your defensive Thrower (after Leader), but, umm... that's not going to happen on this team.

[tenwit]

Maybe try a 3-5 defense, with the Thrower moved from safety on one side or the other to back up the line as "Mike" linebacker, one behind the nose tackle.

If you're going to put someone behind the nose tackle, shouldn't it be a player with Guard? That really discourages following up after blocking on the LoS, and works a treat against teams with Frenzy.. who'd put an Ulfwerner on the line when you know he's going to get slammed next turn?

It'd be really nice to get Dodge and/or BT on that thrower. Someone who can get into the (already-broken) cage and pick up the ball, and is also tough enough to hang onto it next round... Ah well, that's just wishful thinking.

[mattgslater]

If you're going to put someone behind the nose tackle, shouldn't it be a player with Guard?

Vs. heavy Frenzy, I have to agree. Otherwise, the linebacker's block on follow-ups and the difficulty of blitzing him are the two primary factors. This is one reason Trolls work well in this position (and Ogres on Human teams). It's a very good argument for having Guard on the nose tackle, as if you needed another argument for that.

[jammydodger]

okay, thanks for all the advice, but there is still some confusion in my mind - mainly about terms, because things like
- "mike" lineman
- nose tackle
- linebacker
don't mean anything to me. i assume they are american football terms, which i know nothing about (europeaner) so if someone could explain them, that'd be grand.
i'd also like some explaination of the 3-5 defence, is it similar to the one you suggested in the topic about the ag 4 orc blitzer?
and who are the schmuck bob? the non-ST 5 ones?
and yes, the line-orc is ST 4, not 5, a typo there.
stormmaster1 suggested allowing only ST5 positions to hold block or blitzable positions on the defence - would this mean one in the middle flanked by two ST 4 players, and then one in each widezone? or should i put the 'weaker' players in the widezone?
the abscence of block seems more problematic to me than gaining skills like guard or mighty blow. am i being overly cautious and conservative?
i would like to get some more stand firm, but i also think i need to work on putting my guarders in more valuable locations - what are the best places for them? corner of cages? unmoving in the midst of a punch-up?
should i get more / replace players?
anyway, thanks for all the advice, i'll tell you how my next game goes (in two or so weeks)
jammer / cws

p.s. on another note, does anyone have good names for this team and its players, revolving around their obvious physical ability?

[mattgslater]

okay, thanks for all the advice, but there is still some confusion in my mind - mainly about terms, because things like
- "mike" lineman
- nose tackle
- linebacker
don't mean anything to me. i assume they are american football terms, which i know nothing about (europeaner) so if someone could explain them, that'd be grand.

I tried to phrase it so you could parse my meaning without knowing the terms, but I guess it didn't work. A linebacker stands behind the line, but not deep, either ready to soak up the blitz or to rush into the enemy backfield. "Mike" Linebacker is the middle linebacker, holding the space behind the line against the blitz. The nose tackle is the lineman in the middle of the line.

i'd also like some explaination of the 3-5 defence, is it similar to the one you suggested in the topic about the ag 4 orc blitzer?

The first number is the number of guys on the line, and the second number is the number of linebackers. The defense in the topic about the AG4 Orc Blitzer is a 3-4. If you move the Thrower to the middle of the backfield, rather than on one side, you have a 3-5 defense, with one safety instead of two.

and who are the schmuck bob? the non-ST 5 ones?

That's what I meant.

stormmaster1 suggested allowing only ST5 positions to hold block or blitzable positions on the defence - would this mean one in the middle flanked by two ST 4 players, and then one in each widezone? or should i put the 'weaker' players in the widezone?

Three things:

In a symmetrical defense with a three-man front, there are always a minimum of four blitzable positions.

Two of your three ST5 players are MA4, and don't do well in the wide zones.

Only one of your ST5 players has Block, and one of them is AV8.

That's not a "don't do it," but it's not as cool as the ST comparison sounds like. Use them to stop blitzes on the inside.

the abscence of block seems more problematic to me than gaining skills like guard or mighty blow. am i being overly cautious and conservative?

I think you're on the right track with Block on all your +ST guys. Stand Firm is a higher priority than Guard on this team, IMO: you won't lose any ST contests, and it's a rare fool who will throw a 1-die on a Block/Stand Firm player.

[PubBowler]

and it's a rare fool who will throw a 1-die on a Block/Stand Firm player.

Odd, I think a Wrestling block is exactly how I'd deal with that player.

Now wild about the 1D obviously but high ST is more easily negated than Guard (which you don't have spades of) and even with equal ST it's:

1/2 you're on your ass. 2/3 of that with an armour roll.
1/6 turnover.
Your pretty slow and hit quite hard so I don't want you blocking me.
Don't have any dedicated foulers, only the gobbo who's cheap as well.

Yeah, 1D wrestling block would be OK by me.