2 Quickies

[Korhil]

DW comes through with some good logic
Elves are good enough as it is.

---Korhil

[Xynok]

Ignoring the throwing modifiers for range bands places a greater emphasis on Agility and less on throwing skills and the Thrower position.
Any Elf, Gutter Runner etc that gets an AG increase would be throwing Long Bombs on a 2+, making the Thrower position redundant. 3+ Long Bombs for any Elf? No thanks.

Not quite. They can throw inaccurate Bombs. An AG4 still needs a 5+ to be accurate. So a 5 now succeeds...why not? The entire point of having a Thrower is to throw accurate passes, not just throw it. Throwing Skills are what make this accuracy possible (Accurate, Strong Arm). It makes it harder to fumble...this not only makes sense, it marginally affects the game (you succeed on natural rolls). If you expect to win throwing inaccurate passes, you have a ridiculous expectation. An AG3 Accurate player is better than an AG4 player at throwing if said AG3 player has Pass. I disagree with your logic.

Throwing the ball should not be purely agility based.

Taking away Range mods from the Roll doesn't suddenly make this happen. As I've said, Passing Skills still yield far more accurate passes. I can also make the same argument that fumbling the ball should not be purely based on Range. Allowing natural rolls to succeed is fine.

I've said this before, the average wide reciever in the NFL is probably a good deal more agile than the average quarterback.

Yes, but in BB we have nothing else to use BUT AG for throwing. In reality, agility has very little to do with the quality of a QB compared to arm strength and accuracy. Trying to throw long certainly doesn't increase the chances of a fumble, only accuracy. At best, it is a different kind of agility. To throw Accurate passes in BB, high AG is certainly good, but Passing skills are still required to be reliable...you're rolling a D6.

To throw the ball effectively it's only right that you need specialist Throwers with specialist skills. The range band modifiers bring this into the game quite effectively. You wanna throw Long Bombs? You want Strong Arm, you want Accurate, you want an Elway and not a Jerry Rice.

The Range modifiers do not bring this into the game at all, they simply increase the odds of fumbling. NFL QBs aren't measured on how many times they fumble a pass (rare indeed unless pressured or its freezing cold), but on their accuracy downfield. You wanna throw accurate Long Bombs? You want all the skills you mentioned, regardless of Range mods. So I can succeed on a natural 5 now...ok.

Finally, and perhaps the most important point, most experienced players don't throw beyond Short Pass, and certainly not in TZs. Indeed, this is why Strong Arm and Nerves of Steel are traits. Strong Arm, Accurate, and Pass are needed if you expect to consistently throw accurate passes beyond Short Range. You must be a Thrower to get all of these skills. Removing Range mods from the Roll doesn't affect this, it simply affects how likely you are to fumble. High AG simply increases your odds at being inaccurate if Range mods don't affect the Roll. It makes sense. Some people feel throwing to an empty square should be forbidden for this very reason, especially if Range mods don't affect the Roll. I have no problem with that either way myself, but Range should not affect the chance at fumbling, for all the reasons I have explained. This entire argument stems from natural rolls failing more often. Why not just keep everything as is, yet only a natural 1 causes a fumble, with the exception of if TZs would reduce it to 1? This seems to be the best answer imo.

Thanks for reading.

[Deathwing]

I've said this before, the average wide reciever in the NFL is probably a good deal more agile than the average quarterback.

Yes, but in BB we have nothing else to use BUT AG for throwing. In reality, agility has very little to do with the quality of a QB compared to arm strength and accuracy.

You wanna throw Long Bombs? You want Strong Arm, you want Accurate, you want an Elway and not a Jerry Rice.

Are we not in agreement on that point?

As for the rest, my logic is simply that if you reduce the odds of fumbling a long bomb, you increase the effectiveness of throwing them. An inaccurate long Bomb is far from a disaster if you've broken 3 recievers downfield. And of course it's a lot safer to break said players downfield if you reduce the odds of the fumble.
In real world terms, if you wanna go deep, then your offensive line has got to hold for longer, your chances of being sacked are increased, and I'd bet a pound to a penny that more deep passes are picked off than short ones. Going deep is a riskier play by it's nature quite apart from the question of complete/incomplete. Anyway, I digress.
You're certainly not alone in your views, we had an interesting discussion on this a while back, I'll see if I can find it. I think we agreed to disagree in the end. Bottom line for me is that it will make Elves and Skaven better, and I don't think they need it.
I'll see if I can dig out that thread.

[Xynok]

I absolutely understand where you are coming from, and tried to include what I think your primary concerns are. No Range mod on the Roll not only makes it less likely to fumble, but easier to be accurate (due to natural rolls). Here is where I agree you cannot simply remove the Range mods. See my thread on Alternate Passing System for how I think it could be done, while appeasing everyone on both sides.

I feel increased number of inaccurate passes will only marginally affect the game, but I have no hard numbers to back it up. My intuition tells me relying on inaccurate passes is not a way to consistently win, and my alternate system still absolutely stresses the need for a skilled Thrower.

High AG fumbling less on Bombs and Long Passes makes sense to me as well.

The only true concern I have is how increased number of inaccurate passes will affect TTM, where all you NEED is an inaccurate pass.

[Deathwing]

Couldn't find the one I was looking for, but these are on topic:

viewtopic.php?t=711
viewtopic.php?t=1006

Edit: The original query's been answered, and rather than have 2 threads on one topic I'll put this one to bed and repost those links onto the new 'Alternate Passing System' thread.