Help Me Make An Orc Team - 1250k Non-Progression Tournament

Craigtw · Post by **Craigtw** » Tue Jun 17, 2008 9:29 pm

mattgslater wrote:I think you're crazy to take a Blitzer with Sure Hands when you can have a Thrower for 30k less and, with the 40k you save on RR vs. Leader, upgrade a rookie lino to a Blitzer with a skill! The AV point means nothing compared to the net two skills (Pass and a G or S skill of choice).

But if you go with the thrower, then he not only has one less AV but one less MA as well. If he takes leader, then that would only leave him one other available skill - which would mean block to make him as effective as possible as a man inside the cage.

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Tue Jun 17, 2008 10:10 pm

Ah, you can get two skills? Yes, well, then get him Leader and either Kick or Kick-Off Return. Forget Block: SF Blitzers are all you need to protect the cage and keep the ball from popping out.

You also don't lose an MA point: you just get another Blitzer.

The value of this stems from the fact that a Lino plus a RR costs as much as a Thrower with two skills. So if you take one less rookie Lino, you knock out one of your RRs and get a vastly superior player, incidentally covering your SH base!

But if you're allowed two skills per player, that changes a lot. I have to think a bit, as now you can take enough MB to be worthwhile.

Olaf the Stout · Post by **Olaf the Stout** » Tue Jun 17, 2008 10:55 pm

Please note that the rules for the tournament only allow you to buy 1 normal skill per player. So you can't load 1 or 2 players up on skills.

Olaf the Stout

Olaf the Stout · Post by **Olaf the Stout** » Tue Jun 17, 2008 11:14 pm

wesleytj wrote:With that kind of cash, why not get Varag on the roster?

All skill talk aside, how about this:

Varag 260
4Bob 320
4Bli 320
1Thr 70
1Troll 110
2RR 160
1FF/CL/AC

I'm scared of that.

Personally I think having a skill on my 4 BOB's and 4 Blitzers is better than spending the money on Varag. I just think I would be getting better value for money that way.

Olaf the Stout

Olaf the Stout · Post by **Olaf the Stout** » Tue Jun 17, 2008 11:46 pm

Ok, here is a revised line-up

1 x Lineorc 50k
1 x Goblin (with Diving Tackle) 60k
1 x Thrower (with Leader) 90k
4 x Black Orc Blockers (each with Block) 400k
4 x Blitzers (2 with Tackle, 1 with Frenzy, 1 with Strip Ball) 400k
1 x Troll (with Guard) 130k
2 x Rerolls 120k

Grand Total - 1250k

I am also considering:

Ditching Block on one of the BOB's in favour of Kick (either on the BOB or the Lineorc).

Adding a second Goblin to the lineup instead of the Lineorc

Adding a second Thrower to the lineup instead of the Lineorc (this would require ditching 1 or 2 skills to pay for him.

Switching some of the Block on the BOB for Stand Firm. (This one I am a little unsure of. A couple of people have suggested it but I'm not sure how it will be a lot more useful than Block.)

Thoughts?

Olaf the Stout

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Wed Jun 18, 2008 1:15 am

Question for people who know the crowd: will everyone and his grandma be taking a Strip Ball guy and Sure Hands guy? If so, then Strip Ball can be dropped, but you might want a second Thrower.

Olaf the Stout · Post by **Olaf the Stout** » Wed Jun 18, 2008 2:43 am

This is a new first time tournament. It is also the first Blood Bowl tournament I have seen in my State in as long as I know.

With that in mind, I'm not sure how experienced or inexperienced the various coaches may be.

On starting rosters Human Throwers, Khemri Throw-ras, Orc Throwers and Skaven Throwers are the only players that come with Sure Hands.

Maybe I'm underestimating how important most people consider the skill, but I can't see many coaches taking Sure Hands as their one bought skill over other options like Block, Dodge, Sidestep, Guard, Tackle or Mighty Blow.

I think that 1 Blitzer with Strip Ball will be useful. Of course, if everyone takes someone with Sure Hands to be their ball carrier he may be of limited use.

Olaf the Stout

PubBowler · Post by **PubBowler** » Wed Jun 18, 2008 10:09 am

Orcs aren't mobile enough to get that one Strip Baller inside a cage the way an elf team is.

And almost all the teams will have a Sure Hands guy.

I'd stay away from Strip Ball.

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Wed Jun 18, 2008 4:52 pm

You also only need one Tackler. That's why I suggested 2 Blitzers with Stand Firm. In pairs like that, they can be very aggravating.

wesleytj · Post by **wesleytj** » Wed Jun 18, 2008 7:11 pm

I should have read the opening post better. Somehow I missed that you had to buy your skills at 20k each.

OK, yeah, never mind the Varag roster.

Olaf the Stout · Post by **Olaf the Stout** » Thu Jun 19, 2008 12:12 am

mattgslater wrote:You also only need one Tackler. That's why I suggested 2 Blitzers with Stand Firm. In pairs like that, they can be very aggravating.

I thought that 1 Tackler only would be fine but others seem to think that Elves and Zons will just Dodge all over me with just the one Tackler.

What do you think?

And can you explain the value of a pair of Stand Firm Blitzers (over another skill like Frenzy, Tackle, Strip Ball or Guard). I haven't played Orcs before (I generally prefer agility/dodging teams to bashy ones) so I haven't had a lot of experience with Stand Firm.

Olaf the Stout

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Thu Jun 19, 2008 12:54 am

It's actually the same principle as Side Step, but with the added offensive value that position control is great with respect to the cage.

* On D, put him in at cornerback, one square away from the wide zone, two or three back from the LoS. Put a guy in front of and inside him to keep the assists to one and force the oppo to dodge even if they do knock him down. Remember, they can't push him away, so he'll get a return block and exert a tackle zone at least 44.4% of the time... against any team without Leap, that's about as good a drive-breaker as you can hope for out of an 80k player with one skill.

* On O, play Tight End with one of those guys and try to get him stuck in on the side where you intend the action to go, ideally alongside a BOB: a SF Blitzer and a BOB is essentially unblockable for a pair of ST3 guys, and if they can move a guy up they're still burning an action for a crappy risk, unless one of their guys has Guard (in which case it depends on how you position guys around the BOB). If your BOB has Block or Guard it's a very demoralizing thing. The other guy can anchor the front of your cage, making it much more durable.

If you had the ability to take doubles, normally I'd say "get Side Step on that guy: totally worth +10k..." except that there aren't any doubles, so there won't be much Juggernaut (and there might be some Grab). This will seriously play in your favor, except against Dwarfs or Norse, and even then it just means you need to man-mark those guys and try to run them down (that's a good argument for 12 guys, actually... that way you can foul).

Olaf the Stout · Post by **Olaf the Stout** » Thu Jun 19, 2008 7:52 am

Matt, I like your arguements for Stand Firm. I have come up with (another!) 2 possible line-ups but I'm not really sure about either of them.

Line-up 1

1 x Goblin (with Diving Tackle) 60k
2 x Thrower (1 with Leader, 1 with Kick) 180k
4 x Black Orc Blockers (2 x Block) 360k
4 x Blitzers (2 with Stand Firm, 1 with Tackle, 1 with Strip Ball or Frenzy) 400k
1 x Troll (with Guard) 130k
2 x Rerolls 120k

Grand Total 1250k

Line-up 2

1 x Lineorc 50k
1 x Goblin (with Diving Tackle) 60k
1 x Thrower (1 with Leader) 90k
4 x Black Orc Blockers (3 x Block, 1 x Stand Firm) 400k
4 x Blitzers (2 with Stand Firm, 1 with Tackle, 1 with Strip Ball or Frenzy) 400k
1 x Troll (with Guard) 130k
2 x Rerolls 120k

Grand Total 1250k

The first line-up has the advantage of having 2 Throwers in the team, as well as the Kick skill. However I have to give up 2 skills on the BOB in order to get that line-up.

The other variation I could make to that line-up is to take the Diving Tackle skill off the Goblin and use it to give a BOB Block or Stand Firm. As it stand I probably wouldn't see a lot of use out of him otherwise. With the 2 Throwers having Kick and Leader I would want both of them on the field for Defense. So the Goblin would just be there in case I needed to go for a 1 or 2 turn TD or if there was an injury.

The second line-up basically has the skill-less Lineorc there as a back-up in case there is an injury. Otherwise I don't think he will see much field time. All 4 BOB's have skills. Matt has convinced me to change one of the BOB's skills from Block to Stand Firm.

I am still not happy with the amount of Tackle in my team. I would like to be able to take 3 or 4 players with Tackle but I don't think I can without sacrificing something else I really want to keep.

If I face a lot of Amazons or other dodgy teams I may struggle. However if I face teams that don't have any Dodge then I have wasted my money on those skills. By keeping 1 Tackler I can still take down the ball carrier or important player if I need to.

I'd like to keep the Strip Baller. If every team has a Sure Hands ball carrier then the skill is wasted but I'm not so sure this will be the case. I think it may be more useful than Frenzy.

Thoughts?

Olaf the Stout

Ullis · Post by **Ullis** » Thu Jun 19, 2008 7:57 am

I must admit I'm sold on Stand firm right now. I can totally see its usefulness especially on defence, and that's something every coach should concentrate on.

I've also changed my mind regarding Strip Ball and I wouldn't take it. Other posters have been correct in the fact that to really make it effective, you need AG4 or at least Dodge.

It's really hard to choose those skills! I'm happy I don't have to make any decisions. It's easy to get carried away with them as well and buying positionals with in-built skills might make more sense than paying the 20k for a skill. The goblin might be ok as a mobile assist and a stunty Dodger without a skill.

Perhaps you should give the goblin Strip Ball (fortunately you cannot as its a G skill).

PubBowler · Post by **PubBowler** » Thu Jun 19, 2008 9:40 am

Olaf the Stout wrote: I thought that 1 Tackler only would be fine but others seem to think that Elves and Zons will just Dodge all over me with just the one Tackler.

What do you think?

The tackler is not there to stop an Elf team dodging away.
You'd need more than 2 to make that an issue.

It's to increase the odds of you knocking them down.

Frenzy does this as well, not to mention it's many other uses.

And I'm sticking with my roster from page 1.