Re-Rolls and overtime

[Turin]

There is a little discussion within our ref-council about kick-off-table-re-rolls for the overtime.

The rules concerning overtime (pg 15) state that you carry any re-rolls over but do not regenerate used ones while kick-off-results like cheering fans state you only get it for this half. Today there was a macth, where the kicking player got a re-roll by cheering fans after his 8th turn and after the receiving player's turn the overtime began. The question is, do you carry that re-roll over as well? 2 opinions were to arise:

It states "for this half only", which has ended. Therefore, the extra re-roll expires and cannot be used in overtime.

On the other side, this actually means that this re-roll does not regenerate and you start half 2 with all your actual team re-rolls regenerated but without any ones from cheering fans and brilliant coaching. Overtime however is neither an additional halftime, it's overtime with special rules, nor do your team re-rolls regenerate. The rules state, you carry over any re-rolls, not just "team re-rolls and leader re-rolls". Furthermore, if you had 2 team re-rolls and got one from brilliant coaching, then used one and afterwards started the overtime, can you tell you used the one from brilliant coaching?

What is your opinion?

[reservoirelves]

The way I'd do it is that rerolls only reset at halftime. Once you hit overtime rerolls don't reset, you just continue with what you have. I think that the KO descriptions are assuming this but not adding the extra sentance to specifically cover your question.

[landrover]

It states "for this half only", which has ended. Therefore, the extra re-roll expires and cannot be used in overtime.

Correct. Because the cheering fans RR was won in regular time, it automatically expires at the end of the half. It's a bit unfair that the player never had a chance to use it, but them's the breaks. If the player had any remaining RRs from his or her regular roster, then they are allowed to carry them forward into overtime.

This always assumes that the Blood Bowl 'referees' who were tracking the game in question used re-rolls such as cheering fans first and not team RRs.

[Daefaroth]

As a counterpoint. From the pg 15 of the Handbook edition of LRB 5, under Winning the Match

If the match is tied at the end of the second half it is declared a draw unless both coaches agree to go into ‘sudden death overtime’. Flip the Blood Bowl coin to see which coach chooses who kicks-off, and then play a third series of eight turns per team. Any re-rolls still remaining at the end of the second half are carried over and may be used in overtime, but teams do not receive new allocations of re-rolls as they normally would at the start of a new half.


Edit to add: as an additional note, both Cheering Fans and Brilliant Coaching use the phase 'gets an extra re-roll this half'. Not for this half or this half only; simply gets an extra.


Reading both, I'd say they carry forward into OT.

[juergen]

Edit to add: as an additional note, both Cheering Fans and Brilliant Coaching use the phase 'gets an extra re-roll this half'. Not for this half or this half only; simply gets an extra.


Reading both, I'd say they carry forward into OT.

also on page 15:

If the match is tied at the end of
the second half it is declared a draw unless both coaches agree
to go into ‘sudden death overtime’.

so the half definately ended. Cheering fans and Brilliant coaches RR can be used until the half ends (which happened)

So for me it is clear that you can't take them over into overtime (and that was what we finally ruled yesterday)

[juergen]

so the squence would be
- second half ended
- coaching, cheering rr lost (because half ended)
- determine if overtime or draw (in our example it was forced overtime because it was semifinal)
- use the remaining unused rerolls (team & leader)

[Darkson]

So for me it is clear that you can't take them over into overtime (and that was what we finally ruled yesterday)

That'sthey way I read it as well, which is why I always use the bonus rerolls first, and it sucks to win them when you score in turn 8.

[fen]

I thought everyone used their rerolls in these orders:

Leader - Bonus - Team or Bonus - Leader - Team (when the drive looks like it wil be short).

Anyway, once you hit overtime wave b-bye to any rerolls gained through the kick off chart that half.

Personally I think you should get a new Leader Reroll at the start of overtime as well (but you don't) to represent your team being spurred on by their captain.

[DoubleSkulls]

The rules as written unfortunately are a little vague and contradictory. I would say that the extra reroll ought to be retained.

[Darkson]

Ian, not really disagreeing, but on what basis? Because if you allow the bonus rerolls to carry over from the 2nd half to overtime, why can't you carry the bonus over from the 1st to the 2nd?



* Note: I'd actually prefer the bonus rerolls to carry over to overtime [and indeed, from the first to second half], but I don't think that's how it reads.

[landrover]

The rules as written unfortunately are a little vague and contradictory. I would say that the extra reroll ought to be retained.

I disagree. The kick-off table (where one wins the extra re-rolls in the first place) states that they are for the rest of that half only.

imo once the half is over, i.e. before any overtime starts, the re-rolls vanish.

What's your take?

[Joemanji]

If the match is tied at the end of the second half it is declared a draw unless both coaches agree to go into ‘sudden death overtime’. Flip the Blood Bowl coin to see which coach chooses who kicks-off, and then play a third series of eight turns per team. Any re-rolls still remaining at the end of the second half are carried over and may be used in overtime, but teams do not receive new allocations of re-rolls as they normally would at the start of a new half.

With this I'd say they carry over.

* Note: I'd actually prefer the bonus rerolls to carry over to overtime [and indeed, from the first to second half], but I don't think that's how it reads.

Sounds good to me,

[Subhedgehog]

I always interpreted the rules with any rerolls carrying over. The idea in my mind was between the first and second half, the teams retreat to their dugouts while the goblin and high-elf collegiate of magic cheering squads do a flag dance on the field. You know, a proper half-time, where momentum is lost.

Overtime, however, is the ref blowing his whistle, flipping a coin with the captains, the coaches screaming at their players to get into kickoff position and they're off again - the highs or lows of the second half are still going full throttle.

If you use a little bit of fluff and common-sense to interpret the rules, I find the so-called ambiguity tends to disappear.

[spectre1]

Have to agree with Subhedgehog, the Cheering Fans and Brilliant Coaching wording states " gets an extra re-roll this half." Can not see how this implies this half only in fact the "this half" part could have been dropped but assume there would have then been an issue if this extra reroll was awarded in the first half a lot of coaches would have interpreted this to mean that they could start the second half with the extra reroll because "gets an extra re-roll." could be read as "gets an extra re-roll this GAME." I think an elegant solution is to consider overtime as an extension of the second half rather than a third half so that any interpretation works correctly.

Cheers
Spectre

[juergen]

maybe Galak can clear this and find a good wording for the next LRB