A Dark Elf player turning Light skinned

zephard · Post by **zephard** » Tue Jul 01, 2008 1:55 pm

I searched but could not find much on the High Elf.

Ok, I have been playing Dark Elves for about 2 years, and tried my hand at most of the non-elf teams to know that I like AG 4 to much. I have come to accept no big guys, and all.

I am thinking of going High Elf, and well as I have 3 teams all starting witht he same players 2 Blitzers, 3 Catchers, 6 Lineman, 2 Rerolls. I am hitting a brick wall on how to develop the teams. I am use to the great 4 Blitzers, Witch Elves, Runners (dump off ball movers) and Assassins. The High elves with their 2 Blitzers and 2 Throwers and 4 Catchers just seem bland almost. I had thought of looking for advice for Woodies, but feel the Woodies are to different to look for advice.

So how does one develop the vanallia team?

I have heard to turn 2 of the Catchers into Blitzers since they are ST 3. Doing this by giving them Block first then Dodge I would assume.
With my DE Blitzers there was 4 of them to give a good mix of skills, and the WE give even more punching power. So I am feeling a little lost with the HE roster.

Some long term looks at the way the team develops, some different types of how they play would be nice.
I play only in the MBBL so my teams will last as long as I want to play them.

One of my teams has played a few games (think 3) and the current game is going to have 5 if not 6 people gain a skill, 3 Lineman, 2 Catchers, and if I can pull it off another lineman and 1 blitzer.

Could some people give me some ideas on what good rosters look like, and their play style. How they handle well developed Orc and Dwarf teams. Meat Grinding Choas teams. Early development to Grand team kind of out look.

I found the thread about the High Elves but it was more about one persons team immediate choice rather than whole roster development.

Falkom · Post by **Falkom** » Thu Jul 03, 2008 8:43 am

You have some advices on this topic... however it is most about setup but have some great advices from mattgslater
http://www.talkbloodbowl.com/phpBB2/vie ... c&start=15

However I transferred from Humans to Helves and been playing three seasons with them (unfortunately not so great seasons

).
Based on my experience I would recommend following developments

1. Blitzers - Dodge, Tackle/Stripball/Sidestep (in case of any doubles go for MB). Some people recommend Frenzy and I can see it advantages but never used it...

2. Thrower - usually one is made as offensive thrower with passing skills (accurate, strong arm, nos) and some protective dodge while other one is defensive thrower with Block, Dodge/Nos, HMP. However I always regret if I don't take surehands as a first skill on my offensive thrower (maybe just my habit of rolling double 1s)

3. Linos - First skill is almost mandatory - kick. As kicker will start in midfield maybe continue with block/tackle combo and use him as some safety player. Usually people continue progression of linos alternating between Block and Dodge. However it depends on other teams in league and your personal style. I would say that having at least 2 linos with Block/Dodge/Sidestep is great. Any doubles should go to Guard...

4. Catchers - Tricky choices. You can use 2-2 approach and develop 2 of them as blitzers and 2 of them as goal scorers. I would rather develop 3 of them as goal scorers and 4th will get block/tackle/stripball/MB. For the rest of catchers I would go with Dodge as 1 skill and then decide on their roles based on future skill rolls. Take any AG improvements and follow it with Leap.

As I said this is from my (limited) experience and I believe that there is other opinions, but I do hope that this will help...

zephard · Post by **zephard** » Thu Jul 03, 2008 2:48 pm

Thanks Falkom.

Everyone talks bad about how easy High Elves are to play, but I needed advice, because I just did not see them as easy.

Falkom · Post by **Falkom** » Fri Jul 04, 2008 8:48 am

I though the same before I tried them. They are not easy to play as they are not fast as WE neither bashy as DE. Even worst you have a limited number of positional to develop.

You will usually heard about great advantages of AG 4 but I can not remember game in which I wasn't outnumbered. Developed teams will be much stronger and destructive then you and less developed teams will get tons of inducement for star players, bribes etc.

In a longer leagues (our season is 10+ games followed by playoff after which we transfer teams to new season) casualties can really make things hard.

However keep focus on scoring. Score as soon as possible and as more as possible. 2 turn TD will save your skin. If you manage to get 2 TD difference then you can (ab)use clock in order to win with minimum casualties. Alas in my league usual anti-staling practice is fouling (very effective tactics) of most valued players.

zephard · Post by **zephard** » Fri Jul 04, 2008 6:21 pm

I am use to the bashy DEs, and as such, am having the problem with just so few positionals. I mean the DE team of mine has average only 3 linemen.

whitetiger · Post by **whitetiger** » Sun Jul 06, 2008 2:43 pm

Develope a catcher or two into a Witch Elf type player. Give it block and frenzy. Give a couple of them Block and tackle or strip ball. Then all 6 of your "BLitzer" types can double as catchers.

Falkom · Post by **Falkom** » Sun Jul 06, 2008 6:04 pm

Lets not forget that Witch Elves start with Dodge, Frenzy and JU so you only need to add Block and Sidestep to make rounded player. To make same HE Catcher you will need much more SPP points. Anyway you can make one of them as Witch elf surogate but personally I dont belive that HE should be played and developed as DE. It cost too much and you will never achive same performance. If you want to play like DE then its much better to take a orginal DE team...

whitetiger · Post by **whitetiger** » Mon Jul 07, 2008 6:21 pm

Falkom wrote:Lets not forget that Witch Elves start with Dodge, Frenzy and JU so you only need to add Block and Sidestep to make rounded player. To make same HE Catcher you will need much more SPP points. Anyway you can make one of them as Witch elf surogate but personally I dont belive that HE should be played and developed as DE. It cost too much and you will never achive same performance. If you want to play like DE then its much better to take a orginal DE team...

I agree. HE really ought to go as more of a run-and-gun team, with lots of throws at short and long pass distances. Fight just enough to open a hole for your catchers to blow downfield, get a couple of linos or your blitzers down there to protect them, then throw on the second turn.

zephard · Post by **zephard** » Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:40 pm

whitetiger wrote:
Falkom wrote:personally I dont belive that HE should be played and developed as DE. It cost too much and you will never achive same performance. If you want to play like DE then its much better to take a orginal DE team...
I agree. HE really ought to go as more of a run-and-gun team, with lots of throws at short and long pass distances. Fight just enough to open a hole for your catchers to blow downfield, get a couple of linos or your blitzers down there to protect them, then throw on the second turn.

What skills help the run-and-gun team?
I see all the time for the team to be
2 Blitzers
3 Catchers
6 linos
2 rerolls

What comes next after the APO, thrower or your 4th catcher or TRR?
How many skills should one try to get on most of the linemen before buying Throwers?

To develop the 2 of the catchers into weak armor Blitzers, which skills to steer away from?

Thanks for all the advice.

Post by **DoubleSkulls** » Tue Jul 08, 2008 1:42 am

With HE catchers - especially with four available - they can easily get converted into utility players - block and dodge are natural all round skills anyway and probably the first two choices. After that sidestep, fend and leap all help with all round game play. If you are lucky enough to have all of them then developing one into a war dancer equivalent is fairly easy without too much deviation from standard skills. Its only the tackle/strip ball skills that you might not give them until later and that you can change easily enough.

PubBowler · Post by **PubBowler** » Tue Jul 08, 2008 5:50 pm

To add a completally opposing view, I don't think you should take Dodge at all.

None of your players start with it, too many teams load up with Tackle and you are a high AV elf side and so can take a few knocks.

Instead of taking Dodge, take skills which are less easily countered.

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Wed Jul 09, 2008 2:37 am

I like PB's idea in a league with a lot of Dwarfs, or if there are a lot of other dodgy teams so the Tackle will really be flowing. Even then, I'd be sure to have myself a Dodge Catcher pretty quickly.

Major differences:

* If you like Side Step corners, build them out of linos: for Blitzers it's a #3 skill at best. This is because you don't really have enough Blitzers to use effectively at cornerback once you have a good alternative; you want to build them into specialists, and as such they tend to play best at positions that aren't usually obvious Blitz targets. Wood, Dark and Pro Elves don't have to think about this stuff: SS is a no-brainer on a Witch Elf (2nd skill) or Wardancer (whenever), plus DE get 4x Blitzer, so two with SS is a nice skill jump; as for Pro Elves, that should be obvious.

* Catchers will be combo-machines later on: don't focus on the good ones, but bring up the weak ones with prejudice. Start with two of Block, Dodge and Leap, and mix it up: all three combo together nicely. BTW, Pro Elf Catchers become really really scary after they start advancing as a unit: for High Elves, it's not quite as disgusting (the combo potential of NoS is endless), but the difference between these guys and WDs is just a matter of time and quantity. P skills on doubles are lots of fun (again, Pro Elves play this game better... better than Throwers, even).

* Blitzers are specialists. Don't use them to soak up the blitz. You need to stick and move with them, especially until you get a couple good Catchers. Get stuff like Strip Ball and Frenzy on one, and Tackle on the other. Then go for Dodge; unfortunately, SS is at best a 4th option on this kind of guy. For doubles, you can go Guard or Juggernaut.

* High Elf Throwers are just an ok deal at first, but they improve rapidly. Don't sell them short! Get SH, Accurate, NoS on the first one: that combo (SH, Accurate, Safe Throw, Pass, and ideally NoS) is awesome on defense.

Cramy · Post by **Cramy** » Wed Jul 09, 2008 5:17 pm

Yep, agree with Matt.

Blitzers should be developped as specialists. I'd still start with giving them Dodge, then specialize. How they specialize depends on the teams that you are facing. Mighty Blow or Juggernaut on doubles. If you have Mighty Blow, then Dauntless or Tackle work well (avoid Dauntless and Tackle on the same player though, as if you are using Dauntless, you are unlikely to be hitting a dodger). With Juggernaut, Frenzy is good.

Catchers get Block and Dodge first. Then whatever you need depending on the league that you're in. You probably don't need any other specific offensive skills. Side Step helps both on offense and defence, so getting a couple of them would be good. Then a mix of Tackle, Pass Block, Fend, etc ... depending on what your opponents look like. Not sure what to give them on doubles.

For the Linos. One gets Kick early, then Block/Wrestle and Dodge. I like to have one Wrestle, Strip Ball lino. Give him leap as the third skill. Other linos start with a mix of Block/Wrestle and Dodge. Guard on doubles.

Throwers: I'd build an offensive thrower and a defensive thrower. The offensive thrower gets Pass, Accurate, Strong Arm on doubles. The defensive thrower gets Dodge, Sure Hands (also handy on offense if you are worried about Strip Ball), NoS.

When to get the throwers? I tend to consider getting a thrower as early as when all my Linos have at least one SPP. No matter what you do, some linos will skill-up quickly, some much slower. When all Linos have one SPP, usually about half your linos have one or two skills.

Why so much wrestle/block and dodge? In my experience playing with and against elves, you the Elves are not outnumbered, the opponent will have some difficulty. Elves can play great defence when they have a full team. Just to have your guys stay upright is great, as you can rely on having very few holes in your defence.

In a tackle heavy league, I still like lots of dodge. With Chaos Dwarves, you will rarely face more than 6 tackle players. Once they are tied-up, then you can dance around all the other players. With Dwarves, similar. Blitzers will sometimes get tackle, but the runners and Troll Slayers will not. So you can dodge away from the runners and slayer and hopefully the blitzers without fear. You will still minimize the hits that you will take. Means less injuries and less holes in your defence.

zephard · Post by **zephard** » Wed Jul 09, 2008 5:58 pm

Thank you both.
I play in the MBBL only so its a big mix of what I see.
This is the kinda of information I needed.

apothecary · Post by **apothecary** » Wed Jul 09, 2008 6:18 pm

Ive recently discovered how effective dodge & wrestle can be on a high elf catcher both offensive and defensive