LRB5 short-term development for a Skaven team

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Sun Aug 03, 2008 11:14 pm

WT is bang-on right. The trick against bash is to score score score, and if you can't score, force him to score fast.

With Dwarfs, position matters. Go for his Runners preferentially: this should go without saying, but you know you're likely to win if you cas a Runner on your way to a takeaway TD in turn 2-3.

whitetiger · Post by **whitetiger** » Mon Aug 04, 2008 5:44 pm

Exactly, Matt, the only players he should really be targetting is the runners. Avoid as much other contact as you can. Nail the runners, post a fence of tackle zones between the ball and the runner, or if his runner gets the ball, between his runner and his other players, beat up the runner, take the ball and score.

kiih · Post by **kiih** » Tue Aug 12, 2008 7:53 am

I'm going to keep this in the same thread, as the topic is still relevant.

MATCH REPORT, PART 2

I played the second half against the Dwarves. I took a bit of a risk by kicking close to a corner and having my wide zone guys only one square from the centerline on that side of the pitch. I had the most unbelievable luck as the ball scattered back next to his runner, AND he got a quick snap. Result: he got the ball "for free" and blitzed my wide zone open, as well as my LoS.

He proceeded to cage mid-field, advancing slowly from side to side. I always got a TZ on the carrier and stayed one square away from the cage, but when I started to take a beating (luckily KOs and stuns mostly) he managed to score on turn 5. I had 10 players on offense and despite a run of bad luck with my cage-forming (I needed a single die roll to complete the cage - one GFI - and I failed it despite my reroll) I managed to score on turn 6 with a dodging play.

I had two turns to try a TD with 9 players (his offense though). I actually had a pretty decent chance of succeeding, but the attempt failed due to lack of a reroll on the pickup.

So the final score was 2-2. It gave me one valuable point in our mini-league. I rolled a 6 on the winnings roll and thus got 70k. The MVP went to the thrower, and the TDs were spread so that only one player got a skill. It was a Gutter Runner, and I rolled a double. Naturally, this is his first skill.

The question is, which skill should I take? I know this is a topic that has been discussed endlessly, but the fact remains that the discussions are old and LRB5 has changed things quite a bit. VLL would've been my first choice under LRB4, but now it's a totally different skill. Horns would've been another good choice under LRB4 (combined with Dauntless), but now that Dauntless is also nerfed I'm not sure that would be a good route (still the best one I can think of). Block is always useful, but I'd hate to waste a double. Seeing how this is a pretty short league (only three matches remain), one might even consider Kick (but again it would be wasting a double). The team will probably see another mini-league, so it's not like this is going to be super-short-term development.

Also, I purchased a 13th player (lineman) as well as one CL and one AC. I have 10k banked. These can still be changed, so input on the purchases is welcome. I now know I will be facing Humans next match. I have a feeling I might be playing against the Humans the next match also (if the games go as I anticipated).

All input is welcome, but the biggest question is the skill-up for the GR. Thanks!

Ullis · Post by **Ullis** » Tue Aug 12, 2008 8:08 am

My first thoughts were Extra Arms or Guard. Either one would be useful on defense.

I think Strip Ball is an excellent first skill for a Gutter Runner (followed by Wrestle), but both the Humans and Dwarfs in your league have Sure Hands players right from the start. Anyway, you don't need doubles for that.

Andromidius · Post by **Andromidius** » Tue Aug 12, 2008 8:09 am

Big Hand or Extra Arms would get my vote. Anything to get that ball more easily.

~Andromidius

PubBowler · Post by **PubBowler** » Tue Aug 12, 2008 9:46 am

Big Hand.

Use a Wrestle or Strip Ball Wardancer to knock the ball free and then scoop it up and run away.

Probably giggling...

whitetiger · Post by **whitetiger** » Tue Aug 12, 2008 2:48 pm

Big Hand or Extra Arms, and I think I'd do Extra Arms. Gives you more options in more situations.

kiih · Post by **kiih** » Tue Aug 12, 2008 3:31 pm

Whoa, I wouldn't even have considered Extra Arms! Just goes to show why I need your help

As Ullis noted, there are only 3 teams I'm playing against: Human, Dwarf and Undead. Dunno, but this might have heavy implications as to skill choices. The Undead coach is clearly the worst player while the Dwarf coach is the best, so I feel I need the most help with Dwarves and to a lesser extent, Humans (my next opponent and possibly also the opponent after that, by our mini-league rules).

Please do state if YOU think Extra Arms (or Big Hand) would be the best choice. But also, I'm looking for an alternate build (like the Horns+Dauntless build, which used to be a pretty good combo), so feel free to toss them out there. Bear in mind that he'll probably receive only one more skill during this league.

Again, thanks everyone!

Andromidius · Post by **Andromidius** » Tue Aug 12, 2008 3:56 pm

I honestly don't think Horns is a good choice for a Gutter Runner without +ST. Better for a Stormvermin, in my opinion.

Stick with what Gutter Runners are good at - grabbing the ball and running like mad with it. I'll go for Extra Arms over Big Hand purely because you'll use it much more often. But if you get another double, Big Hand is next. And if he gets a normal skill, consider Leap (for jumping out of enemy cages, not into them!).

~Andromidius

duttydave · Post by **duttydave** » Tue Aug 12, 2008 5:31 pm

My own tuppence worth would be to suggest Big Hand.

As Pubbowler points out, a Big Handed Gutter Runner will work great in conjunction with a Strip Baller.

Master Wang · Post by **Master Wang** » Wed Aug 13, 2008 2:16 am

Well done on the draw. Sounds like you did everything right but were a bit unlucky with that kick off. Hope the majority of your team made it out intact.

Big hand would work well with a strip baller. But, as mentioned by Ullis, your league has quite a few sure handed players. If the coaches are sensible they could make it that your strip ball/big hand combo rarely get used.

I'd take extra arms. As Whitetiger says, it'll give you more options in more situations both on the pitch and with future developments.

wolfie81 · Post by **wolfie81** » Wed Aug 13, 2008 9:45 am

I would take extra arms it will be used more often than big hand ,plus to pick up catch and intercepting on a four!!! (not that dwarfs and undead will be throwing much)

i have also found leap a very good skill for GR , but not on a double.

horns is not as good anymore as it can no longer be used with dauntless i would get this for a stregnth 3 player maybe a blitzer and combine it with frenzy.

good luck against the humans

Cramy · Post by **Cramy** » Sat Aug 16, 2008 9:45 pm

As this is a short league with only 3 games left, I'd go with Extra Arms. You may not get an additional skill on this guy, so this skill would get the most useage.

I really like Big Hand with Leap as a combo. Add VLL to that and you're doing great, but that's two doubles.

Wrestle and Strip Ball are great together, but not in your league with only 3 games left, and when playing against lots of Sure Hands. If the Undead coach knows what he is doing (IMO

), he'll be getting a Sure Hands Ghoul shortly if he hasn't already.

Without doubles, the traditional Block then Side Step combo is very good as well. Sure fire skills to pick while you are waiting for that doubles or stats improvement skill roll to specialize your GR.

kiih · Post by **kiih** » Sun Aug 17, 2008 4:48 pm

Back again with a match report and a few questions at the end of the post, if you feel like skipping the report.

I took your collective advice and went with Extra Arms for my GR. I think it was a good call, since I would've gotten one use out of Big Hand during the game, whereas I got two uses for my Extra Arms (the other use directly resulted in a TD). So thanks for the advice, guys!

As stated, for my third match I played against the Humans. We had the exact same TV, so no inducements. Weather was nice all through the game and I had FAME +1. I won the toss and elected to receive (I usually do if I win the toss, but some of you suggested differently, at least against the Dwarves).

My opponent had a Blodging catcher who I was worried about, but I got very lucky as I managed to CAS him on my first round (like the second block I made)! The catcher got a Miss Next Game, and my opponent decided to apo him (I think it was a bad call). To make matters worse for him, the apo didn't help.

My offense is pretty straight forward and almost always follows the same pattern: Punch a hole in the LoS, preferrably blitz the same side wide zone for a larger gap, swarm his side of the field with two-three players and form a half-cage with them as far as their MA allows. Then pick up the ball with the thrower and hand-off or throw it to the scoring GR (the one who is one square behind the LoS). Run the GR into the half-ready cage and complete the cage with the safeties who were securing the hand-off near the LoS. Depending on his defense, tie up his wide-zone blitzers with remaining rats or remain on my half with them. Then take any blocks he can manage plus the blitz (obviously he's looking into getting a TZ on the ball-carrier). On my second turn, dodge away or hand-off the ball to another GR in the cage and then dodge into a TD. Works pretty well and requires mostly 2+ rolls. During this match I also realized that GRs are just fine as cage corners because they have Dodge and AG4 so they don't get stuck and besides, the way I see it is that the cage corners are there basically only to exert TZs so the opponent can't Blitz the ball carrier.

It works like a charm but I'm worried that my opponents figure out how to counter it, since I use it on my every offense more or less.

Anyway, my offense followed the pattern to the T and I scored on turn 2. On my defense, I did the exact same as in the Dwarf match: I tried to kick a bit into a corner and placed my other wide zone blitzer only one square from the halfway line. Guess the kick-off result. Quick Snap. Again. I'm never going to make this mistake again. He stunned 5 of my players on his turn (luckily no KOs or CASs) and put the ball in a cage a bit on my side of the pitch. I did what I could with my remaining players and managed a TZ on his ball carrier, but to no avail. He scored on turn 3.

My second offense followed the same pattern as the previous one. There was a situation where my opponent got several TZs on or near my ball carrier, so I handed the ball to my Extra Arms GR (who was also in two TZs) and it succeeded due to Extra Arms. Then I dodged away into a TD. Hooray for the forums of talkbloodbowl!

My opponent's second offense was directed heavily into my left wide zone. It didn't work out too well for him as my guys could change flanks more easily than his. I bogged his cage down as best I could, but on turn 8 he did a daring play where he dodged two dodgeless players loose, made a Long Pass with his thrower and caught the ball with a catchless player, all without a reroll. There really wasn't much I could do.

During the first half, he inflicted no casualties and I inflicted 3, including a kill (niggling lineman). I'd say the dice were in my favor.

In the second half, on the first turn of his offense he made a big mistake by not calculating how far in his half he should leave his thrower, who was still holding the ball. It was one square too close and I blitzed him. The TD was very simple after that, since he had no safeties on his half of the pitch. 3-2 for me. He lost his game plan and started to make more mistakes because of frustration. His second offense worked a bit better, but he made one small mistake with his cage well into my half and I managed to capitalize on it, blitzing the ball carrier down. The game turned into a bit of a slug-fest as we tried to get to the ball. Luckily I suffered no casualties (only KOs and stuns) and I got the ball free and clear. Then I played the clock for two turns only to score in turn 7.

End result: 4-2 for me and I basically won the preliminary rounds, as I have the most points and my score difference is +3. Barring some freak accident where the Dwarves win by more than 2 goals against the Undead, I'll be playing against the Undead for my next match. If the Undead win against the Dwarves, I'll be playing against Humans for my next match. However, I'm pretty sure the Dwarves will win as they have a good coach whereas the Undead have a markedly worse coach.

I won only 40k despite my reroll, so now I have 50k banked. Three of my players got a skill: Two GRs and the Thrower. The other GR rolled 4+6 and the others rolled normal skills.

Again, I'm looking for your opinion on a few team develpment issues. After all, the previous ones you gave me have worked very well! Here come the questions (with my opinions in parenthesis):

1) Should I get a 14th player with my 50k? (yes)

2) Should I take the +MA on the Gutter Runner? (yes)

3) Which skills should I take on the thrower and the other GR? (Kick on the thrower and Block on the GR)

My thinking is that I need a 14th player since the last time I played against the Undead I took 5 casualties, plus a whole bunch of KOs. As I pointed out, they are the most likely opponent I'm facing next. Also, Dwarves are the likeliest opponent for the finals.

I'm also inclined to take the +MA on the GR, since then he would be only one skill away from Sprint and 1-turn scoring. Plus, he might get a few 1-turn scores even now, with Quick Snap (always placing him on the centerline) or a chainpush.

Many of you may be wondering why I'm inclined to take Kick on the thrower. The reason is: none of my Linemen have gotten a skill. They have very little SPPs to boot. I used to play Skaven with only 2 GRs and the SPPs were spread out pretty evenly. Now with 4 GRs they seem to be the only ones getting SPPs (all my TDs have been made by GRs). Skaven benefit _a lot_ from Kick, especially since I'm probably facing Undead, then Dwarves. Also, I haven't made a single pass with my Thrower in this mini-league. He has no COMPs, only two MVPs which gave him the skill. He always just hands off the ball. Accurate would've been my choice for him if a Lino had gotten a skill as well since then I could've played a throwing game. But I feel I NEED Kick.

Block on the GR seems like a pretty simple choice since I don't have any Blodgers on my team.

Bear in mind I'll be playing only two more games this season. The focus is on those two games but I'm also a little interested in long-term development and the next season.

Thanks for the previous input, which I believe won me the last game!

Cramy · Post by **Cramy** » Mon Aug 18, 2008 3:21 am

To your questions.

1) Yes, get a 14th player. For the reason that you mentioned.

2) Yes, take the +MA. This is a godsend for a GR. Get sprint next and you can score in one turn. You don't want to use him all the time, but the threat of having a one turner means that you force your opponent to defend in a different manner. And of defense, he is great at assisting blocks as he covers so much of the field.

3) The GR gets block in my book. You mention that you use them as a corner for the cage in the opponent's zone. With block, he is more resilient, as he is likely to get blitzed. Then give him sidestep and you can make your opponent's life very difficult at putting a TZ on the ball carrier. Also great on defense, as you can use him to put a TZ on the ball carrier and he is very difficult to move away. If you can get a second GR with block and side step, that's even better. For the thrower, not sure. Depending on how many rerolls you have, give him leader. That's a reroll worth 20k, which is great. If you have enough rerolls, then no need to do this. Block is always good on the thrower as well. On defense you can put him in harm's way and he can pick-up a loose ball to hand-off to a GR as well. He'll be a target at that point, so block helps. I understand your dilema with kick though. And I agree that Skaven need kick, and kick should be the first skill to give to a lineman. So given the shortness of your league, kick would be good on the thrower. In a longer league I would be patient and wait for a lineman to get a skill.