Alternate Apothecary System

Munkey · Post by **Munkey** » Fri Dec 13, 2002 4:49 pm

Aren't you effectively making it harder to roll a death and instead converting 5/6 of those deaths to SI's (albeit specific SI's).

The same effect would be achieved by re-jigging the casulty table for players with apothecaries to change the probabilities of the outcomes (although this could not be done on a D6).

In my opinion the balance of BH, SI and Deaths is about right, as it stands.

Xynok · Post by **Xynok** » Fri Dec 13, 2002 4:58 pm

Well, it depends what the roll is. If its a 4+, it isn't as drastic. Finally, consider how many games you have where you actually suffer 2+ DEAD. On Average, I feel this system barely gives a team one extra chance to marginally "save" one player. Its better then the current system when pure luck works against you, and you have 3 players killed.

Munkey · Post by **Munkey** » Fri Dec 13, 2002 5:22 pm

Xynok, just to clarify then you are saying that in most cases teams will gain very little out of the new rule but it will prevent the odd fluke game where multiple deaths really do hammer a team. Is this correct?

I would modify the rule slightly so that apothecarys are treated as normal and this extra roll to downgrade a death is made for each player that died at the end of the game as an extra apothecary ruling.

I think I would be inclined to increase the roll to a 4+ to avoid death and I would have the player roll on the SI table, this way they could get lucky or worse could lose a stat instead of rolling a niggle.

Alternatively players saved in this way could gain bonehead as a result of their brush with death.

Just had a thought, fluff wise I guess gaining the niggle is not really an injury, rather a fear of taking the pitch after the last close shave.

Xynok · Post by **Xynok** » Fri Dec 13, 2002 5:40 pm

That is exactly correct Munkey.

As to your suggestion, check the last post on the first page: this is indeed how it works. Apothecaries work as usual (we allow Crowd cas healed and heals go to reverves). If you suffer a death AFTER you have already used the Apoth, you get one chance to save them, but it can still fail, and being saved it not all its cracked up to be, just better than being dead.

I think 4+ is the better odds, as 2+ means it will save the player very frequently. I think a 50/50 shot at turning multiple deaths into SIs is perfect. Again, it depends on how much weight you attribute to nigglers.

Xynok · Post by **Xynok** » Fri Dec 13, 2002 6:25 pm

I think I have reached a conclusion on this issue. Allow 2 different degrees of Apothecaries.

Normal Apothecary - 50K - Works as normal

Cleric - 100K (double normal Apothecary) - Replaces any existing Apothecary: works as normal, but also allows the extra DEAD players to roll as I've indicated (4+), with the same rules I've indicated.

Snew · Post by **Snew** » Fri Dec 13, 2002 6:26 pm

Why are there so many threads on Apothecaries? Here's an idea I posted on the other thread on them.

Let the apothecaries do what they do but instead of "fixing" the whole problem, just let them recduce the effects of it by one.

Dead=SI
SI=Badly Hurt
Badly Hurt=KO
KO=Stunned

Niggler=Plays this match

You could have as many of them and let them be as good as anyone wants them to be if this were the case. I might even be open to letting them "fix" past injuries in the same manner at the beginning of the next game.

Khrys_Antos · Post by **Khrys_Antos** » Fri Dec 13, 2002 10:12 pm

I like the apothecary rules the way they are.

Granted when my opponents had to face my homicidal Chaos Dwarves they cringed. Players dying is just part of the game and IMO helps teams which don't score many TD's in equalling out the SPP's.

dakkakhan · Post by **dakkakhan** » Fri Dec 13, 2002 10:25 pm

Not to mention what about those cool kill stats? And bounties come to think of it. You kill a dude with a big old price tag on his head and two games later there that same fool is again.

Sorry, but I'd rather see a thread on make-weights, you know, fill ins that are lame place holders so decimated teams could fill in spots until they made enough $$$ to buy regualr players.

You could give them stats like base lineman -2MV -1ST -1AG regular AV and cost them 10 or 20K. Not allow them to get SPP's, and maybe on a Handicap roll of "That boy's got Talent!" convert him into a free player.

Hey let's face it, after your team gets pounded like that, you aren't challenging for the title anymore, the season becomes a rebuilding season.

Munkey · Post by **Munkey** » Fri Dec 13, 2002 11:59 pm

Sorry Xynok should have read your post more closely

I agree that 4+ is probably better odds to use and I like the idea that apoths with this ability should cost more, maybe this is something that an elf team would but but an orc team might not bother with.

I still prefer the idea that the player must roll to see what downgraded SI he gets rather than automatically getting an NI. Because he's had to wait around longer to recieve treatment anything could haver happened to him.

Also I think that the player dealt with normally by the apoth should allowed to be left on the pitch as with the current rules (if this is not already your intent) unless pushed into the crowd.

I've never really understood why players pushed into the crowd shouldn't be allowed to be healed but this is really a minor issue as anyone stood on the pitch edge is aking for it in my opinion.

In response to Khrys_Antos I would just point out that running teams are helped out on the scoring front by AV penetration not necessarily Cas. Stunned and KO results are enough to help win the game. On the subject of evening up the SPPs a Badly Hurt will provide as many points and has no negative effect on the opponents team in the long run.

Xynok · Post by **Xynok** » Sat Dec 14, 2002 12:50 am

Casualties cause attrition on the field no matter what they are, and yield 2 SPPs.

Another system I have considered is the Apothecary Level system. Each Level costs 50K, and the max Level is 4. Each Level allows a heal attempt once per game. This would give you 4 such rolls if you needed them, but would cost you 200K. Still, the rolls can fail as always.

We definitely play that healed injuries go to Reserves, and therefore crowd casualties can be healed. You aren't asking for anything by standing on the sideline if that is where the ball is and you're trying to actually win. Dwarves (and any race with Frenzy) use this tactic all the time...simply pick a side and either force them into Frenzy position, or make them back off and allow the TD. This still allows attrition on the field (as someone rather erroniously pointed out already in a manner of speaking), which is all you're concerned about if you're a good player.

The bottom line is people lose interest when their team gets destroyed, and when you have a store trying to PROMOTE interest, crap like that works very much against you.

Vitalis · Post by **Vitalis** » Sat Dec 14, 2002 2:48 am

How about this:

An apothecary can heal any injury except death.
Whenever a player on a team dies, the team gets special consideration from Nuffle: All subsequent deaths are treated as a badly hurt result.

This way teams won't be demolished in a single game. Smashed to uselessness maybe. But not demolished.

Demandred · Post by **Demandred** » Sat Dec 14, 2002 3:30 am

There are just those players that cant be stopped. Under the old third edition rules in our league there was a Mummy with jump-up and piling on. His first piling on attempt failed and fortunately the opposing player ran over fouled and killed the player (hard enough with the modified injury roll of 6 to kill). We all breathed a sigh of relief when the mummy failed to regenerate and that was only a 4+. With your system it makes it neigh on impossible to kill such problem players who then go onto decimate your team everytime you play them. It can be very hard to knock over some players (ie mummy's, catchers) at the best of times, let along remove them permanently. So your suggestion means that these players have much less to fear.

And in relation to nigglers, you may have trouble with them. But in our league players mauch more rarely miss games. My lasat two teams (high elves) have each had 4+ NI of which in the last season only one or two missed games in over 4 games. I have even had a skink with 2 NI who only missed a games every 4 or so games. So i have found that nigglers can be annoying but only fairly irregularly miss games.

Also this game is meant to be risky. If you dont protect your star players or are unlucky (the game does have random elements) then you pay for it. As it should be.

Vitalis · Post by **Vitalis** » Sun Dec 15, 2002 6:41 pm

To Demandred:

You are correct. The game is built on luck.

But if you play long enough you get to enjoy the thrill a second time, when the top three players on your team get snuffed in one game.

Source: Unknown.

Experience: When you recognize a mistake the second time you make it.

This experience usually leaves me with a taste of bile in the mouth whenever one mentions BB the next couple of days...
And it could be avoided using some sort of house rule.
The problem being constructing these rules to fit nearly anyones preferences.

Tamper Magnitude · Post by **Tamper Magnitude** » Mon Dec 16, 2002 2:29 pm

Apothecary rules are fine and dandy as they are, no need to change them at all. Players die, teams get smashed up, get over it. It's a game of armour and big spikes

Niggle = Death? What planet you from? I'd only retire a niggler if he was a rookie and I had the cash to replace him straight away.

Shasta McNasty · Post by **Shasta McNasty** » Mon Dec 16, 2002 4:33 pm

Regardless of what problems/ good ideas ppl have regarding more/ different apothecaries, something was abruptly brought to my attention during a game against a friend this morning (well, ok, yesterday morning tchnically).

I was in a situation to make a break, and without pushing be in the clear for an equalizing TD, to push the game to OT. There was one Orc blitzer who could make it to my wight, who was carrying the ball. He was being covered by a mummy, and was about 2 squares from where the wight needed to be to escape the rest of the team. So, without hesitation, my mummy blocked the Orc. After a re-roll, I got him down on the ground.

Now, my mummy had piling on, so I lay him down so as to be sure to make it thru the armor. I wasn't really after a casualty, but if I at least stunned the guy, I would be in the clear. Rolled a 6 on the two dice for armor, and piling on got me thru. Then I rolled a 10... an injury. I was cheering. Then I rolled a six... death. My opponent used his apothecary to try to save his blitzer, and succeded.

The Blitzer was placed face up on the field.

The next turn he declared a blitz, stood up, dodged out and took down my ball carrier. I failed to score and was soon swamped with Orcs.

My problem is this: If I had've only stunned the blitzer, I would have scored. That was, in fact, the whole point. But because I succeded in injuring my enemy, and teh apothercary was used, I was basically penalised.

IMHO, an apothecary should only be able to reduce an injury to stunned. He's not a wizard, as I understand; he runs on, does what he can, then runs off. I'm left with an image of a player groggily getting to his feet. Not of on jumping straight up and charging back in seconds after being revived from death.

What do u guys think?