LRB5 short-term development for a Skaven team

Andromidius · Post by **Andromidius** » Mon Aug 18, 2008 2:48 pm

1/ Yes, more players on a Skaven team is always a good thing.

2/ Yes, MA10 players are unbelievably good. You'd be mad not to take it.

3/ Kick would probably be the best choice, since no Linerat has skilled yet. Aim it as far down the pitch as possible, since you can swarm the ball on your first turn if your opponant either fumbles it or is too unsure to try and make a long pass.

Wrestle for all your Linerats who finally skill up. Who cares if they are fouled, all you want to do is pull tougher opponants to the ground, and to open up gaps for your Gutter Runners to rush.

~Andromidius

kiih · Post by **kiih** » Wed Aug 27, 2008 5:18 pm

Back again with another match report. The advice I need at this point is very minimal. I'd like your consent anyway as the advice given here has led my team so successfully into the final!

I'll try to keep the match report brief. After the last game I took Kick on the Thrower, which turned out to be a very good choice. None of my linemen skilled up after this game, either. I played against the Undead. I lost the toss and kicked. I kicked into the far corner and took a beating during his turn. Then I swarmed his side of the half with my GRs and a Blitzer, to harass his Ghoul. There was a bit of a tussle but my rats got the best of his team mainly because of their speed (my opponent had Zombies for linos, not a single Skeleton). I scored on his offense on turn 4, I think.

Again, I set up my defense with a similar plan: load one side with my rats and kick into the far corner on that side of the field. I rolled Blitz! on the kickoff table and I almost felt bad for my opponent as he had had really bad luck during the whole game and now this. Anyway, I proceeded to swarm his half and tie up his ball handlers. Again we got into a fight where I screened his guys on/near the LoS from the ball and his ball handlers. A few turns of easy fighting (his Wights and Mummies weren't even near the fight) and I managed to score on my turn 8, which concluded the half. 2-0 for me.

My offense followed the same pattern it always does (see a few posts up for the details), and it worked perfectly just like in every offense to date with this team. It's almost unbeatable, at least with rookie/rookieish teams. Anyway, I scored on turn 2 as per the plan.

On his offense we rolled Changing weather and then Blizzard. Good for me, I thought as I'm not as reliant on GFIs. He started his cage deep and I slowed it down to one square per round. I was getting frustrated as it seemed like his team would take forever to get to the goal, thus I wouldn't get more TDs. I deliberately made a "mistake" with my defense and he took the bait. He made a run for a TD. He needed 2 GFIs. The first one succeeded, the second one was a 2 (Blizzard, remember?). He rerolled with Pro, succeeded on Pro but rolled another 2. End result: as my GRs were scattered on the full length of the pitch, I made a pickup-short pass-handoff-move -play, transporting the ball the whole length of the pitch, literally. 24 squares downfield, to be exact. I then delayed for one turn one square from the TD zone, only to score on my turn 8. 4-0 for me, and the most spectacular play I've ever done. You should've seen the look on my opponent's face.

All-in-all, I think this was my best game to date and it was very much due to the Kick skill. I think it's the single most important skill on a Skaven team, dunno why I never realized it before. Also, I got a very nice sense of satisfaction when my fake mistake worked. It wasn't TOO obvious, and even if his GFIs hadn't failed, I'd still have had two turns to make a TD (which is all this team seems to need, like, ever).

My Thrower got a COMP and the random MVP, again. 16 SPPs = his second skill (first one being Kick). The last of my GRs finally skilled up, as did my first Blitzer. All normal skills. Also, one lineman died. My opponent actually got two kills but my apo saved the other one (I took a risk by using the apo on a lino halfway through the 2nd half). It's very likely I'm facing the Dwarves in the final.

Anyway, to the questions (with my opinions in parenthesis):

1) Should I replace the dead lineman, so I'd have 14 players? (yes, 14 isn't too many players against Dwarves)

2) Which skill should I take on the GR? (Block so I'd have two blodgers)

3) Which skill should I take on the Blitzer? (Guard since I have no Guard at the moment)

4) Which skill should I take on the Thrower? (I'm not really sure but I guess Accurate or Leader)

The last two questions are the tricky ones for me, really. Is one Guard enough? I guess Strip Ball wouldn't be all that good as Dwarf Runners have Sure Hands. Maybe even Mighty Blow on the Blitzer? Still, I tend to lead towards Guard. On the Thrower, I'm really lost. I've needed to pass the ball only once with him in 4 games, so Accurate might not be needed. Kick Off Return is a nice skill on the initial ball handler, but I haven't had the need for that either with Skaven. Might be just that I've always been lucky with the kicks, though. I think Leader might see the most use. I'm interested in a fresh idea, as my Thrower isn't the traditional Thrower anyway with Kick. When this team sees its next season, I'm probably getting another Thrower which will be just that, a thrower.

Thanks again for your input! I'll let you know how I do in the final.

Cramy · Post by **Cramy** » Wed Aug 27, 2008 5:42 pm

Yes, kick is probably the one most useful skill for Skaven.

I'll answer one of your questions, for the Thrower. I'd be tempted to give him block. He will always play on defence due to the kick skill, and you want to keep him on the pitch so that you can use your kick skill. So you want to protect this guy. He can now be useful to get in harms-way to some extent and try to pick-up the ball to give you your GRs if you don't have any GRs close-by. Sure Hands allows for a decent chance of a pick-up in a tackle zone.

My linerat with kick always gets block next for protection.

Leader would be a good choice as well, but I'd go for block.

Leilond · Post by **Leilond** » Wed Aug 27, 2008 8:04 pm

kiih wrote:
1) Should I replace the dead lineman, so I'd have 14 players? (yes, 14 isn't too many players against Dwarves)

Yes

2) Which skill should I take on the GR? (Block so I'd have two blodgers)

Yes. Side step is very good too

3) Which skill should I take on the Blitzer? (Guard since I have no Guard at the moment)

I ALWAYS use Mighty blow on the first blitzer and Grab on the second. Your only concearn is to open holes for your gutters. Grab and mighty blow are perfect for this

4) Which skill should I take on the Thrower? (I'm not really sure but I guess Accurate or Leader)

bounce off

The last two questions are the tricky ones for me, really. Is one Guard enough? I guess Strip Ball wouldn't be all that good as Dwarf Runners have Sure Hands. Maybe even Mighty Blow on the Blitzer?

YES. Mighty blow is your only chance to hope in a stunned player and pheraps a KO player every now and then

Still, I tend to lead towards Guard. On the Thrower, I'm really lost. I've needed to pass the ball only once with him in 4 games, so Accurate might not be needed. Kick Off Return is a nice skill on the initial ball handler, but I haven't had the need for that either with Skaven.

I do not use a thrower, never. Usually play with 4 gutters and no thrower... but dump off could be a good choice. Safe throw too

Might be just that I've always been lucky with the kicks, though. I think Leader might see the most use.

A good choice too

I'm interested in a fresh idea, as my Thrower isn't the traditional Thrower anyway with Kick. When this team sees its next season, I'm probably getting another Thrower which will be just that, a thrower.

Skaven teams do not really need throwers. Give sure hands to one of your gutter and you can fire out the thrower once and for all

Thanks again for your input! I'll let you know how I do in the final.

Only IMHO

Master Wang · Post by **Master Wang** » Thu Aug 28, 2008 12:27 am

I'd buy the lineman as you're probably gonna suffer a few causalties against the dwarves.

Block on the gutter runner.

Leader if you think you need an extra re-roll, if not block. Keep that thrower alive and make him even more useful on defence. If you get a second thrower you can work on turning him into a pure offensive one, though you won't ever need such a position on your team, it's just a luxury that'll free up another runner.

The blitzer... Guard is nice, but if your opponent is sensible he'll hunt him down and get him of the pitch asap. Mighty blow is also good. I'm not too sure on this one but either of those would be good and help with the final and life after the final. Knowing your opponent's team may make the decision for you...

Post by **DoubleSkulls** » Thu Aug 28, 2008 4:04 am

The thrower with kick right? So you are playing him on D, not O? In which case either:
Leader -cheap reroll, you'll need them more on D than O
NoS - for retrieving the ball in TZ then passing it to a GR (works well with Big Hand too).
Block - to make him more of a utility rat and live longer.

If you want a 2nd thrower then develop him for offense - accurate, strong arm on doubles, safe throw etc. However Gutter Runners are better at this than rookie throwers, so you take a penalty whilst he's developing.

Cramy · Post by **Cramy** » Thu Aug 28, 2008 12:25 pm

Although Skaven don't need a thrower, I almost always have one. He rarely handles the ball on offence, but is useful when a couple of GRs are out of the game. I'll also have him handle the ball when playing against Leaping Strip ballers (i.e. War Dancers and the like). That way I don't have to waste a skill to give Sure Hands to a GR.

He plays on defence a lot. Another player who can get in there and grab the ball who's lying on the ground. If no difficult dodges are required, he can go and get the ball and give it to a GR. You have more GRs running around, and staying out of harms way. Give him NoS, and he is pretty good at the above, as he has Sure Hands and Pass already.

Easy access to Leader and NoS is a good deal.

Leilond · Post by **Leilond** » Thu Aug 28, 2008 12:56 pm

Cramy wrote:Although Skaven don't need a thrower, I almost always have one. He rarely handles the ball on offence, but is useful when a couple of GRs are out of the game. I'll also have him handle the ball when playing against Leaping Strip ballers (i.e. War Dancers and the like). That way I don't have to waste a skill to give Sure Hands to a GR.

He plays on defence a lot. Another player who can get in there and grab the ball who's lying on the ground. If no difficult dodges are required, he can go and get the ball and give it to a GR. You have more GRs running around, and staying out of harms way. Give him NoS, and he is pretty good at the above, as he has Sure Hands and Pass already.

Easy access to Leader and NoS is a good deal.

Well, everyone has his mind
I never use a Thrower at all.. I'havent got one in my team at all

kiih · Post by **kiih** » Sun Aug 31, 2008 6:36 pm

Thanks for the input!

Against all odds, the Human team managed to win so I'll be facing them in the final. Does this change any of the skill or team purchase choices in your minds? At least Mighty Blow is looking awfully good against all that AV 8 and the few AV 7s.

Also, I think the usefulness of Kick is severely reduced (as opposed to being against Dwarves). Would you kick near the LoS or to the far end against Humans?

Andromidius · Post by **Andromidius** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 2:25 am

Kicking nearer the LOS against Humans is a good idea, yes. Their Catchers are very quick, so it won't make much difference to them. But if you get Blitz...

Mighty Blow would be a good skill for the Storm Vermin. But then so would Guard. Depends if you want to smash faces more, or keep your Linerats alive more easily.

Block for the Gutter Runner, definately. Next skills should be Sprint or Sure Feet, getting them ready for the eventual AV10 upgrades...

On your Thrower, give him Block. Or Hail Mary Pass. Block keeps him alive, and lets him act as a safety against enemy Catchers. Hail Mary means he can snatch up that ball and just hurl it into a tight huddle of Gutter Runners down the other end of the pitch.

And facing humans should be a little easily for you. No massed Tackle to ruin your Gutter Runners' dodging. No massed Guard to smash your entire team into the dirt. And you're still faster then them, so you should be able to outpace them consistantly.

~Andromidius

kiih · Post by **kiih** » Fri Sep 12, 2008 12:25 pm

This is long overdue, since I played the final a week ago but just thought I'd let you know I won the final 4-2. Hooray TBB! I also got the most SPPs in the league on one of my GRs, so he got the Fan Favorite skill as per our league rules.

I think I have nailed the Skaven playstyle, more or less. For our next league, I'm gonna go with another team. As much as I like the rats, I think I've overplayed them a bit. Your advice has certainly opened my eyes with regards to some tactics, but I feel its still more or less the same game I've been playing since my first game of Blood Bowl (I started with Skaven, no surprise there). For me, this league completes the circle with Skaven: No losses, one tie and an average of over 3 TDs per game.

The way I see it, Skaven are an easy team to play well with. Not as competetive as some of the other teams, sure, but pretty simple to play with. I am a competitive person and I enjoy winning, so now I'm looking into teams that are good but perhaps not as easy to play well with. Lizardmen come to mind.

Anyways, I'll be asking for your advice more later on, once we are about to start our next league. Anyways, thanks once more for your valuable advice!

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Sat Sep 13, 2008 4:04 am

Lizardmen are good for that sort of stuff: they have great player value (the Saurus should be 90k), but also present a tricky challenge in managing their skill selections, as their players are all either AG1 or lacking G access. You might also want to consider Chaos. They're very fun in terms of development decisions... after you get a couple guys with Block. In all, they're a nice risky team: individual players are all good values, but the combination (specifically the lack of skills or A/P access) is not exactly optimal. Dark Elves are another challenging team with upside: they can be both surgical and aggressive, but lack blinding speed. Also enjoyable is Necromantic: they have highly-specialized players (even the linemen are dedicated speedbumps), fun skill combos, lots of A and S access, and a whole new set of development concerns from Skaven.

Then in a later season, when you want to burn them all again, go with Pro Elves. The first time you coach ten games with those Catchers, you'll fall in love! Nerves of Steel isn't exactly great, but on MA8/AG4/Catch, it sure is fun. And the combos, oh the combos. Let the linos build like Blitzers (Side Step) and watch the fun ensue!

Jural · Post by **Jural** » Sat Sep 13, 2008 4:38 am

Chaos Pact is, for my money, the best team for a "developer."

So many options, so many chances to make the wrong choice, so many directions to go.

Oh, and three big men doesn't hurt, nor do dark elves, skaven, or goblins with mutations