Facing advanced Amazons

[Vinz D.]

I've got a league match coming up with my Skaven team (RO, 2 SV, 4 runners from which two have AG5 and one has block, two throwers and five linerats of which one has kick) against an advanced Amazon team.

My opponent has fifteen players, with all his blitzers having guard and two of them having tackle on top of it. In addition, amongst his linemen is also one guard player and two that have block.

How can I bypass that 'guard' line, without suffering too much?

Greetz

[Ullis]

On offence, go around him. Just get 3 gutter runners in his backfield and try and score on turn 2. Guard shouldn't be a problem in offence as you're able to spread his defence. In other words, business as usual.

Defence is obviously trickier. He'll probably cage, so I'd try and use the Rat Ogre to open the cage. The problem is that with all that Guard your RO will probably go down on the next turn. On the other hand, with Kick you'll be able to hopefully prevent the ball from reaching the cage. Kick deep into one corner and hope your Gutter runners reach the ball and ball carrier before they get into the safety of the cage.

Do you have Strip ball on any of the GR's? It's good against Amazons as they are slow and they might not have Sure Hands on too many players.

I'd actually be more worried if all the Blitzers had Mighty Blow.

[Leilond]

Use their poor armor against him
Use your blitzer wisely and your rattogre more wisely. If you can block with the rattogre using 3 dices, do it but only if the frenzy doesn't bring you too in the middle of his players. If you can block with 3 dices and then you can surround your rattogre and protect him with the lines, DO IT... if you cannot, use your blitzers. Amanzon's AV is the only real flaw of the roster, and you have always to use your good things (high MA) and opponent's flaw (low AV) to win the games

[fen]

On offence, go around him. Just get 3 gutter runners in his backfield and try and score on turn 2.

No, no no no!

Seriously, don't do this. It plays directly into his hands by giving him longer periods in control of the game than you.

Take your time scoring, obviously play it safe and score if the ball looks threatened. But Skaven are so fast they can actually move the ball the full length of the pitch with a hand off and a pass (all on 2+s) and they can move it 19 squares with only a single 2+ hand off (that's why you carefully position your GRs and use them to handle the ball).

Use that, stall until things look like they might turn into serious casualties. Concentrate on trying to either crowd push his players or knock them down and foul them. The Guard/Tackle players are the priority to eliminate so concentrate on them until they go away.

But above all else, don't score lightning fast touchdowns when you don't need to. That's the main way any running/agility/finesse team loses to the bashier side as it's playing into their game plan. And in this match up the 'zon's are most certainly the bashier.

[Smeborg]

Take a Wizard as inducement.

Recently (in a tournament) I caught 6 Amazons in a fireball. It was quite effective, I can assure you.

Hope this helps.

Smeborg

[Andromidius]

I'd say it depends on if you're kicking or receiving.

If receiving, stall. Just keep running away from the Amazons so they can only blitz and never block. Admittedly this is tricky without AV4 or Dodge on your Linerats, but oh well. And then score on turn 7 or 8.

If kicking, then kick deep into a corner, and run all 4 Gutter Runners (using the Storm Vermin to open up a nice hole for you - the Rat Ogre is too unreliable) all over it before the Amazons can throw it to safety, and 'guard' it from being easily picked up and passed off. Then you score next turn. Repeat three more times.

If all goes well, that's a 5 - 0 victory. In theory.

Though if the Amazons see what you're doing (since you'll need to load all your Gutter Runners and Storm Vermin onto the side you want to kick to) and deploys against you, you may have a harder time about it. But hey, no tactic is perfect...

~Andromidius

[Jural]

Only Wood Elf coaches with plenty of re-rolls can ignore Fen. They can on a routine play "reverse the line" and end up on offense when the opponent thinks he's on offense.

Skaven just can't do that! The MA is right, but the AG (mostly 3) and STR (2 on your most mobile) make it more difficult.

Against Amazons, Skaven have a huge advantage- Speed. Out maneuver him, feint one way and prepare to go back. Make sure your blocks move him away from where he wants to go.

Oh, and make them Dodge a lot, if you can (so follow up the blocks pushing them out of position.) AG 3 and Dodge is acceptable, but not awesome. The Amazon coaches who lose a lot plan on Dodging with a bunch of players every turn.

On offence, go around him. Just get 3 gutter runners in his backfield and try and score on turn 2.

No, no no no!

Seriously, don't do this. It plays directly into his hands by giving him longer periods in control of the game than you.

Take your time scoring, obviously play it safe and score if the ball looks threatened. But Skaven are so fast they can actually move the ball the full length of the pitch with a hand off and a pass (all on 2+s) and they can move it 19 squares with only a single 2+ hand off (that's why you carefully position your GRs and use them to handle the ball).

Use that, stall until things look like they might turn into serious casualties. Concentrate on trying to either crowd push his players or knock them down and foul them. The Guard/Tackle players are the priority to eliminate so concentrate on them until they go away.

But above all else, don't score lightning fast touchdowns when you don't need to. That's the main way any running/agility/finesse team loses to the bashier side as it's playing into their game plan. And in this match up the 'zon's are most certainly the bashier.

[Vinz D.]

Thank you all for the replies.

It wasn't needed in the end though, as the opponent swapped places with the league commissioner who had come back from a long holiday, so I was facing a Wood Elf team (with a 220 higher team value then my Skaven, which I found out the next day, as we hadn't checked it at that time) and got beaten 2-5 TDs and 1-2 CAS.

I will keep the comments in mind, though.

Greetz

[Leilond]

Thank you all for the replies.

It wasn't needed in the end though, as the opponent swapped places with the league commissioner who had come back from a long holiday, so I was facing a Wood Elf team (with a 220 higher team value then my Skaven, which I found out the next day, as we hadn't checked it at that time) and got beaten 2-5 TDs and 1-2 CAS.

I will keep the comments in mind, though.

Greetz

1-2 casuality isn't very indicative of the match result
WHO got the casuality
If he got the Wardancer injuried and you've 2 linerats injuried, you had a nice result in the casuality fight... but if you got 2 gutter runner injuried and he had linelf, you lost in the injury fight too

All this only to say that you don't have to mind too much about linerat casuality... do not waste your strategy to protect them too much. If you tie a game losing 3 linerats it's not terribly bad, but if you win a game with two gutter runners beaten to death or very serious injury (-1 ST or -1 AG for example), the game didn't went very well, because you're going to suffer that injuries very much in following match... a win that can costs you two loses

Thus, buy an Apotecary as fast as you can... and take a wandering one if you have 100.000 inducement. Your high price rats must be protected from serious injury

[Vinz D.]

I killed a lineman (he used his apo to make it a badly hurt), he badly hurt-ed my rookie thrower, my AG5 gutter runner failed a dodge and died (apo made it a MNG) and he badly hurt-ed the other AG5 gutter runner.

I started off with the apothecary in the team.

Greetz

[Leilond]

I killed a lineman (he used his apo to make it a badly hurt), he badly hurt-ed my rookie thrower, my AG5 gutter runner failed a dodge and died (apo made it a MNG) and he badly hurt-ed the other AG5 gutter runner.

I started off with the apothecary in the team.

Greetz

That's not a nice result

As you surely know you've not to be surprised to be usually injuried more than your opponent... but losign 5-2 too isn't nice

My too blitzer are designed in two totally different ways
First: damaging one. Mighty blow and piling on... waiting for Frenzy, Tackle and Juggernaut (Dodge on a double)
Second: defensive one. Tackle and guard, waiting for Grab (Dodge on a double)
The first can really help you to go up in injuring your opponents. Blocking with two dices an AV 8 blodger (block + dodge) I've got 17% to injury him... thus he usually make at least one casuality each game
The second one is terribly usefull to protect the first and the gutters, a very good cager

My four Gutters have two very different developement
Offensive 1: Block, Sure hands
Offensive 2: Block, Sure hands, Side step
Defensive 1: Block, Shadowing, Side step
Defensive 2: Pass Block, Wrestle

The two "defensive gutters" are very effective...
The shadowning gutter can follow a fleeing runner for a lot of squares, forcing him to roll a dodge after another... it is very annoing for my opponents
The Wrestle one is great for keeping away the ball from blodgers, because he can "strip" the ball with a both down result

I don't know if these builds fit up your game style, but they can be usefull to give you some ideas on what you have and what you think you lack of

[mattgslater]

These things happen (well, not to me, but they happen). Dust yourself off, and be glad that neither GR died.

Bummer, though.

[fen]

My four Gutters have two very different developement
Offensive 1: Block, Sure hands
Offensive 2: Block, Sure hands, Side step
Defensive 1: Block, Shadowing, Side step
Defensive 2: Pass Block, Wrestle

Hum, I'm really not that impressed with this skill selection. It's too, redundant.

Sure Hands just isn't worth putting on a Gutter Runner, if there's trouble with strip ball players you use a Thrower(s) on your team. So really all it's there for is saving a reroll one in every six pick up rolls when you use a gutter runner to collect the ball. Thats just not worth 20K, let alone 40K.

I'd prefer.

1. Block, Dauntless (MB on doubles)
2. Block, Side Step (Guard or Big Hand on doubles - depending on the situation)
3. Wrestle, Strip Ball, Leap (VLL on doubles)
4. Block, Shadowing, Pass Block (VLL on doubles, which opens up leap)

But that's in part to do with personal play style and GR use.

[Leilond]

My four Gutters have two very different developement
Offensive 1: Block, Sure hands
Offensive 2: Block, Sure hands, Side step
Defensive 1: Block, Shadowing, Side step
Defensive 2: Pass Block, Wrestle

Hum, I'm really not that impressed with this skill selection. It's too, redundant.

Sure Hands just isn't worth putting on a Gutter Runner, if there's trouble with strip ball players you use a Thrower(s) on your team. So really all it's there for is saving a reroll one in every six pick up rolls when you use a gutter runner to collect the ball. Thats just not worth 20K, let alone 40K.

Obviously everyone has his mind, but I consider a Thrower a waste of money and team position. A Gutter runner with Sure hands is 10 times better than a thrower. It happened to me a lot to pick up the ball near one or two tackle zones, and the difference between AG 3 and AG 4 becomes huge in this situation. I will always prefer to see the ball in the hand of a gutter than a thrower, for the speed of their feet.
I haven't got a thrower in my team at all, not in the reserve box too

I found those the most effective way, and I fired my thrower when I discovered that I used it like a costly linerat

By the way, this is only my experience

[Master Wang]

I agree it's all down to personal preference, BUT I do like the thrower. By having one on the field, you free up a gutter runner to do more running, and you don't need to give one sure hands. His lack of agility can be countered with accurate and a mutation (needs a bit of luck admitedly), and NOS helps with getting the ball out of tackle zones. Also he gives you access to Leader.