Next Skills for Dwarf Blocker and Runner

[Jural]

I wouldn't get him Strip Ball. That's what Slayers are for. Nerves? He does have MA7+Catch... but you don't really have anyone to throw to him.

Throw to him, no. But it makes sense to have the other runner be a Kick Off returner and give him the ball on a hand off.

As for slayers, I personally use them as safeties, and give them Mighty Blow, Strip Ball, and Tackle. But if one of my runners was a safeties instead, I would recommend Strip Ball in the right league.

[TuernRedvenom]

I wouldn't give anyone on a Dwarf team strip ball, period. They're too slow and not agile enough to make good use of it. And the squad has plenty of tackle, dauntless and frenzy: you can put any ball carrier on its ass without too much effort when you get a shot at it. Strip ball is good for getting balls loose in tight situations but dwarves have trouble getting in there and subsequently getting the ball out even when it's loose.

I would have never taken catch on that runner either (Dodge would have been awesome though), but that's how it is.

I wouldn't take kick off return as you'll want the other runner to pick up the ball (give him KoR) and keep this one for a handoff threath (having catch + MA) so you can move the ball quickly when necesary.

I wouldn't take kick either, this is your fastest player! Don't waste "team" skills on him. Dwarves don't need kick as much as other teams, just take it on a longbeard.

I wouldn't take NoS either, it's a poor skill to patch up another sub-optimal skill choice (Catch), the problem here is you'll still need to dodge out on a 3+ after you've catched the ball. Smart opponents will just mark him so that he can't easily dodge out.

I only see 2 options remaining to get the most out of this guy.

1) Tackle: he makes a great safety blitzer to get at those skinks and catchers hiding in corners of the pitch where your other, slower players can't reach.

2) Fend: personally, I love this skill on Runners. It's even better on this guy as he has +MA and Catch. If you opponent blocks him then he'll often be free to receive a handoff or move elsewhere to give an assist. He'll be great for plugging holes in your defence (a fender in the right place can stop all attempts to blitz through stone cold). Finally, this is one of your must vulnerable and valuable players so Fend protects you against frenzy and piling on.

I would take Fend.

[Jural]

Strip Ball for dwarves is not to get the ball out of a tight scrum, but rather to make that gutter runner make a 3+ dodge, a 3+ pick-up, and a 2+ dodge, all without a dodge re-roll to score instead of a single 2+ dodge.

In other words, it's a good way to save your bacon if you are out maneuvered and are in danger of giving up the TD in a critical moment.

By the way, I'd never take catch on him either, but two catch, NOS, Dump-Off runners would be difficult to play against... Errm, but not as difficult as if the team just played it's standard game!

[TuernRedvenom]

Strip Ball for dwarves is not to get the ball out of a tight scrum, but rather to make that gutter runner make a 3+ dodge, a 3+ pick-up, and a 2+ dodge, all without a dodge re-roll to score instead of a single 2+ dodge.

In other words, it's a good way to save your bacon if you are out maneuvered and are in danger of giving up the TD in a critical moment.

But it's not very usefull, so you've stripped the ball from that gutter runner. You'll still be struggling to pick up the ball as probably that GR was only just within your blitzing range and the ball is lying in a tackle zone. All he needs to do next turn is pick it back up and score (it's not even sure you get a TZ on the ball, depending on the bounce and the first dodge will likely be a 2+ as he will likely first dodge out the easy way and then just step back in). So tackle is a better skill since you're more likely to knock that GR on his ass (if you can stunn him then that's already enough) and you can then probably pick up the ball a lot more easily.

[PubBowler]

Everyone says take Kick Off Return, but if all goes well in a game I should only receive once, and with MA7 I can get to the ball in any square in my half.

It's useful to have skills for when things aren't going well.
As well as for preventing a a Blitz/fast burst through turn around.

I've never taken Strip Ball or Catch on a Runner and have never felt their lack.

If you don't like KOR I suggest Fend.

[Gimli]

Gentlemen,

Thank you for all of your thoughtful (and thought provoking) replies. If one thing is clear, there is no clear right choice.

First, though, a comment on the Catch skill choice. I agree that in hindsight Dodge would have been better. However, I had some success early on playing a very un Dwarf throwing game, and my thought was I would build a Runner/Passer and a Runner/Thrower to build a different dimension to my offence. Unhappily, my Runner/Thrower - who had Pass and 15 SPP -was killed (with an Apothecary roll!) - shortly after I chose the Catch skill on my Runner/Catcher. Since then, the MA7 Runner has been the ball handler of choice, especially since he got block, hence his rapid accumulation of SPP. Unfortunately, the rookie Runner is still stuck at 0 SPP - it just doesn't make sense to give him the ball ... .

As for the various skill choices, I think I have to make a decision about what role I want to beef up. Currently he is a great two way player - on defence no one expects a Dwarf with Block to blitz 7+ squares! If I want to beef that role up, Strip Ball or Tackle are the choices.

Point taken regarding Kick. It's off the table. As for KOR, I'm tempted to take it, except that on this team that will just make it even harder to develop the other Runner - the MA7 Runner will get the ball even more! I am not denying it is a very useful skill - there was a very thoughtful post from reservoirelves about the value of KOR to a Dwarf team in getting the ball to midfield that had me convinced that was the way to go - but it makes more sense - on this team - to build the other runner up so that he can hand off to my MA7 Runner.

Pass Block - intriguing idea, especially since I have Catch (two chances to intercept), but don't other coaches just pass around it?

Tackle - point taken, and it works on both offence and defence, but I have so much Tackle already! ... but not on a MA7+ player.

Strip Ball - I agree it is tough to capitalize on, but it does increase the chance of a disrupting a dash for a touchdown. If I don't knock down there is a 3 in 6 chance they will drop the ball, which can only lead to good things.

Fend - it does cancel Frenzy and Piling On => live longer. Also, while generally as a Dwarf I want my opponent next to me, my MA7 Runner is an exception to that rule. But if I'm being Blitzed, can't they just use another point of MA and tag me and/or pick up the ball? Fend is not common in my league. It will not be expected nor well understood - which would make it more valuable.

So Tackle, Pass Block, Fend and Strip Ball - I think I'll roll a dice!

[mattgslater]

If it's between those 4, then Fend by a mile.

[Mad Jackal]

Yes. Fend is the superior choice.

If you are forcing him to blitz you and spend extra movement then you're slowing your opponent down.

Plus I found the runner is the player you really want free in the back field. To get the ball, provide an assist, or maybe hit on hit own. Not having to dodge to do that is very nice.

Plus as stated above, piling on and frenzy cancelling is very usefull.

Extend the lifespan of the 7 moving runner.

counters:
If you want tackle in the back field play a long beard deep in my opinion.

Pass Block can be used to force your opponent to pass around, a great passive play. Not a good choice on this player.
That skill is totally wasted on offense and wasted many times on defense.

Fend will work for you many times in a single turn even. (Plus you can elect not to fend which really screws with your opponents.)


Strip ball. I like the skill. But wasted while you carry the ball, or if they have sure hands, or if the ball is loose. Plus you don't even have block yet to use with the skill and you should not be taking wrestle.

Better off letting some-one else hit the ball carrier to pry it loose and send him in to pick it up or even assist maybe.

[Andromidius]

Not choosing to Fend means nothing to your opponant. They can still choose to follow up or not.

Stand Firm, on the other hand...

~Andromidius

[DoubleSkulls]

My preference would be for Kick Off return. It combos nicely with Catch (since if you get under the ball you get to reroll the catch attempt) and helps you get the cage formed further up the pitch.

Kick isn't that useful for dwarves in my experience as you are generally too slow to exploit backfield errors.

NoS isn't a bad choice because it means as a ball retriever he can run in, pick up the ball then pass out.

[mattgslater]

NoS isn't a bad choice because it means as a ball retriever he can run in, pick up the ball then pass out.

Man, if I ever had a player pick up the ball and then pass out (without being KO'ed), I'd fire him on the spot and write an angry letter to the BBRC about the rules that allow such weaklings to play Blood Bowl!

[Gimli]

I think it's looking like I will take Fend, not only for the reasons discussed but also because it is rarely used in my League. I think it will disorient other players - not being able to follow up when they think they can - and may in fact discourage blocks in the first.

KOR - close second but on this team it will further delay developing my rookie MA6 Runner (0 SPP in about 10 games!) The rookie will get it as a first or second (after Block) skill.

Next league game is a week Saturday. I'll try to give an update on how these skill choices go (DT on the MA5 Blocker and Fend on the MA7 Runner).

Thanks again for all the good advice!

[Mad Jackal]

Not choosing to Fend means nothing to your opponant. They can still choose to follow up or not.

Stand Firm, on the other hand...

~Andromidius

Not if you've suckered a frenzy player.

[Jural]

My preference would be for Kick Off return. It combos nicely with Catch (since if you get under the ball you get to reroll the catch attempt) and helps you get the cage formed further up the pitch.

Kick isn't that useful for dwarves in my experience as you are generally too slow to exploit backfield errors.

NoS isn't a bad choice because it means as a ball retriever he can run in, pick up the ball then pass out.

NoS works on Pick Ups? I thought it didn't... No LRB in front of me right now...

[atropabelladonna]

My preference would be for Kick Off return. It combos nicely with Catch (since if you get under the ball you get to reroll the catch attempt) and helps you get the cage formed further up the pitch.

Kick isn't that useful for dwarves in my experience as you are generally too slow to exploit backfield errors.

NoS isn't a bad choice because it means as a ball retriever he can run in, pick up the ball then pass out.

NoS works on Pick Ups? I thought it didn't... No LRB in front of me right now...

It doesn't. Ian is just refering to the fact you don't have to dodge out to make the pass. I do it frequently with my pro elves.