Revising the Treeman

[Munkey]

Although the Treemen will be out of action for longer on average they will be able to start each drive on the line of scrimmage and make the first block more often than before.

Just oplaying devils advocate, IMO this rule is much better than the current one.

[Skummy]

This trait will hurt Halflings a good deal more than Wood Elves. A team that can score quickly can effectively negate this penalty and reset their rooted players. Few teams score more quickly than WE's.

The impending rules review decision on big guys using leader and tournament rerolls could also have a large impact on how treeman are used. I could see a team deciding that their best option would be to use their leader reroll to keep the tree mobile on defense, and rely on scoring quickly on offence.

[GalakStarscraper]

Important thing to WEs is that the Tree is a roadblock .. that why the negative says the Tree loses its TZ ... creates a nice hole in the WE offensive defense that they then need to work about.

Galak

[Skummy]

Understood, just trying to point out that this is a much less restrictive negative trait for Wood Elves than the previous version. It even stacks up favorably for them when compared to Bonehead, the least restrictive of the negative traits. Take Root was comparable to WA as the most harmful of all the negative traits, and this would change it a good deal. Bumping up the price of a tree does not seem to cover the change in tactics this will mean for a WE team. I know I'd pay a significant amout more for a Rat Ogre with a toned down WA.

[GalakStarscraper]

Understood, just trying to point out that this is a much less restrictive negative trait for Wood Elves than the previous version

Now see there we will disagree. Wood Elves teams are very competitive without Treemen. The advantage the Wood Elf team has is once the Tree shows up he is a fully functional player. Now I am removing a player from the pitch for a player that most games will have no TZ and cannot move for 4 to 5 turns. In my opinion, this is a worse trade off for the Elves. Unlike Halflings its no big deal for them with old Take Root if the Tree fails the roll ... fine I'll use him for the 2nd half ... for the Flings it is a pretty severe blow. This change means that if the Elves field the Tree that rather than have a fully useable player they have one that on average will be no good for 25%+ of the turns but those 25% will be ON-pitch instead of OFF-pitch (as they are now) .... so if I'm a Wood Elf coach I definitely do NOT see this as an improvement at all ... in fact I'm not sure I'd even buy a Treeman at 120k ... definitely not on my starting roster I wouldn't.

Galak

[Ghost of Pariah]

I don't think flings are gonna rule the world with this skill but that doesn't mean it's balanced either.
I agree that Take Root is too harsh right now but this rule doesn't do alot as far as negs go. Especially when you consider that people are still whining about Wild Animal. Am I incorrect in thinking that the BBRC is considering increasing the negs?

Nah, this ain't the way to go. So the flings get 2 enormous blockers on the line that immovable!? Doesn't sound bad to me. Especially when my Ogre and Troll spend a good deal of the game in the same state but cost me an action to boot! And soon my minos will be attacking my own players again.

I don't think this rule will let halflings rule the world but I think it takes them yet one more step closer to being a competitive and no longer a joke. (Remember that now they get the thrwo team mate abilty right form the get go.)
So with this proposal your flings get immovable blockers and will always have the ability to throw team mates. Want to get rid of that ability? Then you risk allowing the treeman to move again. You also have to have 4 players on him just to get 1 a dice block.
With ST 6 they need more of a negative than always being present to toss the team around.

[GalakStarscraper]

Nah, this ain't the way to go. So the flings get 2 enormous blockers on the line that immovable!? Doesn't sound bad to me. Especially when my Ogre and Troll spend a good deal of the game in the same state but cost me an action to boot! And soon my minos will be attacking my own players again.

So when both Trees succeed at their Take Root rolls and are players without any negatives than Halflings are a significant threat???

See this is the problem with that argument. The Halflings already sucked even if both Trees showed up with their negatrait in effect effectively cancelled. Since Halfling weren't doing that well even when both Trees show up currently, I don't get how you can argue that taking two fully useable trees and exchanging it for two Trees who can become worthless throughout the game somehow gave the Flings a big leg up.

If Hallfing coaches won a majority of their matches or even 25% of their matches when they have 2 Treeman that show up at the beginning of the game, I'd believe that we would be giving the 'Flings too much help, but since that isn't the case, I don't agree with the argument that two full time impair Trees significantly power up the Flings.

It helps and it hurts. I really on my Treeman moving so he can get to the Fling to throw him. If the Fling moves to the Treeman then he cannot run after being thrown. So I'm trading a Treeman who is fully function but sometimes not there, for one that really screws with a core strategy of the Flings but is always around. Its a fair trade to me.

Galak

[Ghost of Pariah]

Where did I say that? That's not at all the point.

The point is that before it was a negative skill. Sometimes the guy who had real chance of removing some players from the other team didn't show. Now he's always there no matter what happens.

Does this make them too powerful? NO. Is it a negative trait? No. The treeman is still able to remove opposing players.
A lack of MA is EASILY worked around by simply plopping them on the LoS...where they normally go anyway!

Where is the negative in this skill? They stand, immovable on the line? I WISH my troll could do that!...and have ST 6 and AV 10!!!
Yeah yeah, you moved your treemen willy nilly. I didn't see them gain 100 yards but if you say so. Most people don't. They plop them on the line and let them knock linemen out of the game. This trait doesn't stop that!

Now to sum up, so you don't put words in my mouth again...I don't think this rule will let flings rule the pitch. I just think it's not very negative. Especially when the BBRC is looking at toning down the Mino. This trait is much easier going than Wild Animal!
The treemen already have the highest ST and AV of all the big guys, the halflings already get more big guys than anybody else, and now you want to make them better?! Not needed.

[Demandred]

I disagree Pariah, the halfling team is that s#$% that i'm fine with it having two treemen with these rules. The WE should just not be allowed to take treeman, as all the other elf teams cant have any big guys.

Then the orc team can take an ogre with a gobbo to throw and they can hold the line or run the ball much better than the halflings (see previous statement about halfling team above ) so why shouldnt the halflings be given the opportunity to be more competitive in line with the gobbo team and even the orcs who can TTM.

[Ghost of Pariah]

You're missing the point.

Show me one orc or goblin team that use TTM everytime? There isn't one. On all of the teams with an ogre or a troll they must risk the loss of a pass action to try it. If the big guy fails his stupid roll then the whole thing is bust. The halflings with this rule can simply plant the treemen on the line and begin chucking flings. It will always work as long as they don't fumble. Now take a look at Galak site where he also wants the ability to chuck flings at other players. (I admit I want that too.) Now think about this...the team with the cheapest players has the ability to set up immovable catapults on the line and throw cheap bombs at the other team. What can you do about it? Hmmn. You can use up 3 players to throw a one die block against it and knock it down for 2 turns. YOu aren't going to penetrate the AV 10 so this is only a temp fix.

I'll go along with trait if they make treemen AV 9 or ST 5 or both. But to allow a halfling team 2 indestructable catapults is really lame.

[Demandred]

In relation to the orc and gobbo teams (esp the orcs) they tend to have other things the can do (assuming you allow secret weapons or other bonus players such as squigs) thus the throwing can be used as another tatic to compliment there current abilities. Thus the orc team can try to run it and then fall back on the gobbo toss if they fell like it. Also the gobbos are a bit faster and have one better AV lessening there death prospects. The halflings need this extra play to give them a more feasable chance to score. They are slow and weak.

Even still the halflings will have trouble stopping an offence as the treeman are likely to quickly be immobile and then the other team can ignore them and run the half down with the ball and spend the time destroying the halflings. So any offensive benefit can be reduced as the halflings are destroyed. Then the treeman can be marked in a number of tacklezones so they will easily fumble. The only risk with this is the amount of carnage the treemen may be able to cause when blocking. But hey isnt that the same as any other team with big players (ie 2 mummies). This just means the other player might actually have to think and play smart (omg).

[Icedman]

Show me one orc or goblin team that use TTM everytime? There isn't one. On all of the teams with an ogre or a troll they must risk the loss of a pass action to try it. If the big guy fails his stupid roll then the whole thing is bust.

The Orc player in the last league I ran had an Ogre and a couple Gobbo's on his Orc team; if he couldn't run the ball in with the big green boys, he would always toss the Gobbo. Heck, if he decided that he hadn't moved far enough over 2-3 turns, the Ogre would "wind up and pitch".

The point is that before it was a negative skill. Sometimes the guy who had real chance of removing some players from the other team didn't show. Now he's always there no matter what happens.

Does this make them too powerful? NO. Is it a negative trait? No. The treeman is still able to remove opposing players.
A lack of MA is EASILY worked around by simply plopping them on the LoS...where they normally go anyway!

I won't diagree with you on the first count Pariah, the Tree WILL always show no matter what with the new rule. Now think on it this way: the Treeman fails his Take Root roll (with all that entails....), and the line fodder that were standing next to him get to run the f**k away. Without dodging. And because the Tree is immobile for the rest of the drive, he probably won't find anyone else to beat on.

Now, I won't diagree that ST6 AV10 is a little extreme (but not really much), but I'll agree with Demandred that if the Treemen were limited to the Halfling team only, then the power of the Treemen wouldn't be a problem.

BTW, I like the new Take Root idea, and I think it would really help the Treeman out. Now, all we gotta do is find a Wild Animal fix that seems to actually work

[Ghost of Pariah]

Your friend's ogre still had to declare a Pass action and then roll to see if that action was wasted. There is always the chance that the gobbo holding the ball stays on the side of the pitch that coach doesn't want him to. The treeman doesn't have to worry about that.

How does a player run away? All the fling coach needs to do is plant some halflings around him. Just cuz he loses a tackle zone doesn't mean he can't assist.
Also where will you run to when the treemen can throw 30K players anywhere on the board? How will you take down the catapult? Cuz I garauntee that is where this is headed.

Taking MA away from a treeman is like taking 1 AG away from an ogre for failing bonehead. It's all but pointless. There is nothing wrong with treemen as is. Wanna fix something? Fix the horrible ally rules.

[GalakStarscraper]

You're missing the point.

Now take a look at Galak site where he also wants the ability to chuck flings at other players. (I admit I want that too.)

Actually I only want this for the Goblin team to be honest. I could care less about it for the Halfling team.

Galak

[Ghost of Pariah]

I still don't why this change is necessary. The treemen aren't broke.

I have to say that I think changing negative skills sets a dangerous precedent. They should have left WA alone.

NOBODY LIKES THE NEGATIVES! Do you think I like Bonehead? I hate it but that's what balances ogres. So you don't like Take Root? Big deal. Deal with it. It's negative.

If this goes through my next rant will be for Bonehead to be changed to a failure meaning the ogre loses 1 AG for the rest of the drive. He's confused while he thinks harder. So he can't pass and has an AG of 1.

It's the same thing.