Seting up defence with Wood Elves

[darwinn69]

I'm trying to figure out the best way to set up on the LOC with wood elves against very bash teams. In my league their are at lest two teams running around with an entire line Strength 4 and guard, and a big guy(specifically orks and lizardmen). When I'm on offense it's a no brainer, Set up the treeman on one end and punch a big enough hole to allow my catchers through with their support line elfs and wardancers....or if I'm desperate set up a 1 turn score with the catchers. On defence though I'm not sure how I should set up my Line. My current roster is something like this:
Wardancer: strip ball
Wardancer: strip ball, frenzy
Catcher: +AG, leap, sprint
Catcher: sprint
Thrower: Accurate
Treeman: Guard
5xLineelfs: Dodge
Lineelf: +ST, +AG
Lineelf: Kick

Against most teams I set up my treeman in the middle, with a dodgeing lineelf on either side. Everyone else is standing one or two lines back with tackel zones everywhere. That usually gives me enough protection that my treman will still be standing at the end of the turn...unless they throw an obseen amount of blocks against it. But against a massive line of BoB and trolls, or Saurses and Krox, it dosen't work as my treeman seems to get knocked down no matter what I put on the line. I was trying to think of some scnerios with my St4 elf that could keep the treeman up, but without at least dodge I really don't want to put him on the line yet.

So against these teams should I even bother with a treeman? Usually I want the treeman to get hit so my elves don't, but in this case I'm wondering it it might not be better to put 3 dodgey elfs on the line instead of the treeman? Any suggestions would be great!

[DoubleSkulls]

I think your lineup is correct. Getting fend on a couple of the dodge line elves would be handy and then using them on the line, but isn't necessary.

As for the bash boys taking on your tree. That is exactly what you want! You want a big cluster of them around your Av10 player - not picking on your much more vulnerable and more valuable S4 AG5 wonder kid!

Kick deep, exploit his clustering around the tree to put pressure on the backfield and don't worry about the LOS. If you are lucky the tree gets up again and gets bashed, if not then try to put him in the middle of the way of the cage.

Don't forget that you can elect NOT to use stand firm, which can be handy to reduce assists if your opponent is lining up a big gang foul on the tree.

[Mad Jackal]

ianwilliams has it right.

I'd add in getting wrestle on the line elves too.

And emphasis never putting the st4 agility 5 line elf anywhere near the los. He should be getting ready to go get the ball.

The tree only exists to tie up opponents and soak blocks that would otherwise be trying to kill elves. Period.

Unless you put grab on him next and use him to help ots or muddle with thier player's cage.

Best of luck.

[mattgslater]

If you're worried about bash beyond the next game, think about getting Side Step on some of those Dodge linos when they advance again (Wrestle on at least one other). Side Step is great vs. cages, and very solid when it comes to the line, as it can prevent chain-blocking. Also, having a Side Stepper lets you get more creative with your wide-zone positioning, potentially allowing you to protect another player vs. the blitz.

Absolutely it's ok if the tree goes down. His Stand Firm, ST6 and AV10 mean he clogs up the line pretty much no matter what, which takes a lot of pressure off your backfield. Guard is better against ST3 than against Orcs and such, but at least it keeps that third block die out of the equation.

One place I differ with Ian: unless you play against a really Grab-happy team, Side Step is way better than Fend on the LOS (though both together is even better). Vs. Frenzy, SS is a great line skill on this team because it lets you get pushed behind the Tree with Guard. Fend still lets you get pushed down the line (you know, away from the Tree?), while SS lets you fall straight back into the hole, where even if you go down you can still provide an outer perimeter for the cage.

Then when the cage does form, both skills stop the one-square game, but SS actually makes it a hazard to block, while Fend just makes it less useful. Fend is a great G-access alternative, sort of a Side Step for Hobgoblins, and is a good follow-up as well. But it's not Side Step.

[DoubleSkulls]

The reason I chose fend was because it helps prevent your opponent getting assists against the tree since they can't follow up into the squares to the left & right - so its probably marginally better for protecting the tree. Generally SS is better IMO.

[darwinn69]

I guess this is the newbie comeing out in me. What do you mean by the "one square game"? I'm still having a lot of difficulty breaking up cages, and I honistly don't see where SS would come in handy in this?

[PubBowler]

"one square game" refers to the tactic of slowing down a cage by positioning your players one square away from the front of the cage.

With only one blitz and nowhere to run to this normally forces the caging coach to do some pretty fancy maneuvering to keep his team moving forward.

Fend enhances this by not allowing a follow up therefore reducing a cages movement forward through blocking.

Side Step means your players can't be pushed to the side out of the way and can even end up inside the cage with entertaining results (for one player anyway).

Hope this is a little clearer.

[darwinn69]

Alright, I understand and can see how using SS can slow a cage down to a crawl. So my question is, once I get it slowed down, how do I actually break it up?

My problem is when I play these guys when they do get the ball, they cage up and surround the ball carrier with 8 guys. As a WE their is pratically no way I can be more physical than them to try and break it open. Since their isn't an empty square near the ball carrier where my wardancer can leap to, getting a hit on the ball carrier is tough. What makes it bad is my oppenents then try to run the clock down and would be perfectly happy to move one or two squares a turn, so long as they can pull out a score on turn 8. I always seem to loose these games 2-1.

So how do I either force the cage to hurry up and score so I can get the ball back and make a TD before the half, or break the cage up enough to actually get a hit against the ball carrier?

[fire olli]

If you win the toss kick to them. This can work in a few ways

1) let him score quick, if he trys to slow down at this point put the pressure on and force him to score. You should have some turns left to equal the score.

2) second half score in 2-3 turns, this will put you 2-1 up and force your opponent to score for the draw but this may take a while but should still leave you enough turns to get the winning touchdown if needs be.

wood elves need to take a few risks. I think some people get into there head that they cannot make a move unless its a 2+ roll, most teams need 3+ and 4+ rolls to do actions, wood elves can do these rolls in tackle zones which is a massive plus.

[mattgslater]

Use Kick to kick the ball deep and force them to take some risks to cage up. The best way to beat a good cage team is to keep them from caging in the first place.

Set up shallow to maximize pressure on the ball and force your opponents to attack you near midfield. Stagger your corners behind and outside of the guys protecting them in the wide zones, so your opponent can't easily cage in your backfield (corners are the best targets for Side Step). You want the cage going up the middle, so you can pick the angle of assault.

Get some Frenzy. This will help you pick guys off the edges of the cage more easily. Always rush a man downfield, no matter what. It can be a lino or a Catcher, doesn't really matter. It can be a Dancer if you're doing something else (like blitzing). The guy who's close to going up is a good choice. But above all, remember the fundamental principle of elves:

If you didn't score last turn, you ought to score this turn.

And for that matter, the fundamental principle of Blood Bowl:

The best offense is a good defense.

[Mad Jackal]

Actually. if he is using the 8 man cage then you are golden. How can he break free from that?

When he pulls up into contact with your line of one-off elves use the secondary pushback rules to push the ball carrier out of the center and out to where there is a hole. Or push the other players out of the way.


Also though. if he is still scoring on you when you've dodged your men to one square away conceeding 1 square per turn for a half, then you need to improve your positioning or check his dice. Especially if he has closed the holes in his cage. He should have no men to stop you from surrounding him and shutting the drive down.

I kick, when I can and try to turn them over for the score right away. Again, deep kicks to force a mistake and get to them before they cage,

Strip Ball wardancers. A few block and wrestle linemen to do the shoving tricks to free the ball from an 8 man cage.

As for how to play wood elves. its close but not quite the same as above for me.

My mantra is always, "There is a score here, I just need to find it."
Some turns the odds are just poor.

[DoubleSkulls]

Alright, I understand and can see how using SS can slow a cage down to a crawl. So my question is, once I get it slowed down, how do I actually break it up?

Its a common problem that a lot of lighter teams try to take on the cage to force an opening and score. What this tends to do is get your team managled and reduce your numbers far enough you can't stop him.

However you don't need to break it up. He only has 8 turns to score (max). So if you receive and score (use up as much time as you can) then he might only have say 5 turns left. If you reduce him to 1 square per turn with a double layered defence (so even if he knocks a player down he's still got to dodge to get through the line) then eventually he'll have to open up the game and provide opportunities for you to turn him over.

Code: Select all

_A__A__A__A_
_B__B__B__B_
____________

So B is the line closest to your opponent and A is your secondary line. The centre of your defence should be in line with the centre of his cage.

The other thing is just to prevent the cage forming - get kick and kick deep. Then use your mobility to get several players between the ball carrier and the LOS - where most like he can cage up safely. If he makes a mistake then you ought to be able to exploit it to score, if he doesn't he's probably formed the cage deep in his own half making it easier for you to slow it down.

If you do want to attack the cage then cages are typically like this - X is his player, B is his ball carrier.

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_____
_X_X_
__B__
_X_X_
_____

That means you can normally leap in and get a 1 dice block, and only need one of your players to cancel the assists from 2 of the Xs. Looser cages can be easier just to dodge into than leap into. If the cage is more congested than that there is often an opportunity to use secondary push backs to get the ball carrier out of the protection and at least marked by one of your players. A secondary push is where, because all the squares that a blocked player could get pushed to are occupied you get to pick which of the occupied squares gets pushed back in turn.

[Cleutin]

If you do want to attack the cage then cages are typically like this - X is his player, B is his ball carrier.
Code:

Code: Select all

_____
_X_X_
__B__
_X_X_
_____

This cage can be a bit tricky, when the X players have a lot of guard, then it is impossible to cancel their assists and the player leaping in the hole has to make a two dice block against himself, but with a reroll in hand, StripBall and Block or better Wrestle it is still a good opinion to get the ball free.

[Marcus]

Ian talks sense as always.

I think the headspace you need to get into as a Woodelf coach is the idea that the opponent does not have the right to form a cage on your watch. Build your team to prevent them doing this, if you build your team to break cages then you're playing your opponents game and should be playing a different team. You want to keep the game fluid and open and ensure your opponent is rolling as many dice as possible to handle the ball. Power teams hate handling the ball and generally don't like to do much more than 1 pickup and 1 handoff.

I generally kick deep and then get at least 2 and preferably 3 players rushing downfield getting in the reciever's face and cutting off the running lanes between the backfield and the LoS. Passblock is handy for this and I would usually have 1 or 2 lineelves or catchers with the skill to deny the opportunity to pass the ball up the field. Get sidestep/diving tackle on a wardancer and keep his TZ on the ball/ballcarrier in the backfield off every kickoff and see how many cages your opponent forms.

[darwinn69]

I'm specifically thinking lizardmen here, where one skink ends up surrounded by 6 saurses with guard and a krox. So basically your saying if they formed a cage I've already lost the battle and my efforts should really go into keeping the cage from even forming?

It seems like I've really underestamated sidestep....really going to have to get that on some of my elves.