Wild Animal House Rule

Maedhros · Post by **Maedhros** » Mon Dec 16, 2002 4:58 am

Hey, in the new league we're starting we're considering ammending the Wild Animal rule to make it less obnoxious to teams wanting a Rat Ogre or Minotaur. The rule we're considering is allowing WA players to 'opt out' of their turn. At the beginning of each turn when WA players normally have to activate you can simply chose to not activate. They cannot take their turn later, you effectively choose not to use them for that entire turn.

How does this sound to you guys? Will this work? Do we need to introduce another penalty to WA players to make up for this house rule in terms of game balance?

Our goal is just to make it feasable to field these players. As it stands now no one would consider using them because of the ability to surround them to cause early turnovers.

Thanks for your comments!

Zombie · Post by **Zombie** » Mon Dec 16, 2002 8:51 am

Yeah, it sounds good to me, even in terms of balance. Currently wild animal is by far the worst negative racial caracteristic and there's no reason why minotaurs and rat ogres need to be impared this much.

Marcus · Post by **Marcus** » Mon Dec 16, 2002 10:56 am

That's exactly the rule I've been suggesting for months. Keeps the flavour, allows the opponent to neutralise the ratogre, but puts the tactical decision back in the hands of the WA coach.

I'm suggesting this one for next ECBBL rules review.

martynq · Post by **martynq** » Mon Dec 16, 2002 12:14 pm

I'm not so convinced that we shouldn't be making Wild Animal more negative not less negative. For a while, you had me convinced, but that was because it was a while since I played against a Wild Animal.

The problem with the Wild Animal negative trait is that it is only a real problem early on. I'm currently playing a PBEM match against a skaven team with a rat ogre with Block and Tackle, so I could put four elves next to the ogre and hope he rolled skull. But if he doesn't I'll have no more than 7 elves to deal with the rest of the skaven. Now he has Block and Tackle, he's got an extremely good chance of taking one of my players down and a much less chance of suffering a turnover (compared to a rookie WA). Wild Animal really isn't too much of a problem for him now.

Grrr... get rid of big guys and give elves a chance!!!

Cheers,
Martyn

Deathwing · Post by **Deathwing** » Mon Dec 16, 2002 1:06 pm

I got caught like that at the Spiky, 4 elves around a RO and a 3 TZs on the loose ball doesn't leave a lot of coverage.
Double Splat! with the RO, a leap with a GR, a 5+ pick up, two dodges and a TD pass to another GR, and I'm left with egg on my face.

I can see the arguements against playing the WA rather than the ball, but it's still a risky policy at the end of the day.

martynq · Post by **martynq** » Mon Dec 16, 2002 1:11 pm

Deathwing wrote:I can see the arguements against playing the WA rather than the ball, but it's still a risky policy at the end of the day.

Exactly... but if you don't play the WA rather than the ball, then the negative trait doesn't count for much. This is why I think WA needs to be made more negative.

Cheers,
Martyn

Marcus · Post by **Marcus** » Tue Dec 17, 2002 10:38 am

Rat Ogres

Must move first
Can't claim assists
Can't use rerolls
Must block
130K

What would you like to add that would make him worse? They're expensive and have major obstacles to their effective use. They're still useful even after all that. They should be for what you have to put up with to use them. Wardancers clock in at 120K. I dont' see anyone asking to keep adding negative traits to them. Yes Ratogres will beat you up, yes they'll break out occassionally when you surround them. Other times they won't, other times they'll lose you the game. Most of the time their coach will not be able to use them as they would like because they have to move first and can't get any assists.

Wild Animal is currently so bad that a large number of players will never use them. Can you get any more negative than that? I think that's going a little over the top. You dont' keep adding rules to something good until it's bad or unusable.

BudsBalkan · Post by **BudsBalkan** » Tue Dec 17, 2002 12:06 pm

martynq wrote:I'm not so convinced that we shouldn't be making Wild Animal more negative not less negative. For a while, you had me convinced, but that was because it was a while since I played against a Wild Animal.

The problem with the Wild Animal negative trait is that it is only a real problem early on. I'm currently playing a PBEM match against a skaven team with a rat ogre with Block and Tackle, so I could put four elves next to the ogre and hope he rolled skull. But if he doesn't I'll have no more than 7 elves to deal with the rest of the skaven. Now he has Block and Tackle, he's got an extremely good chance of taking one of my players down and a much less chance of suffering a turnover (compared to a rookie WA). Wild Animal really isn't too much of a problem for him now.

Grrr... get rid of big guys and give elves a chance!!!

Cheers,
Martyn

What the hack do u go on to the Rat Ogre!!!
If u are playing Elves then u had to avoid these BGs.
Dont go with half team on one player, who does not have the ball.
If you want to grind the opponent, then take another team!!

I personally dont like all the neg. Skills at all! But thats another theme!

Bye
BudsBalkan

martynq · Post by **martynq** » Tue Dec 17, 2002 12:31 pm

Marcus wrote: Rat Ogres
Must move first
Can't claim assists
Can't use rerolls
Must block
130K

What would you like to add that would make him worse? They're expensive and have major obstacles to their effective use. They're still useful even after all that. They should be for what you have to put up with to use them. I dont' see anyone asking to keep adding negative traits to them. Yes Ratogres will beat you up, yes they'll break out occassionally when you surround them. Other times they won't, other times they'll lose you the game. Most of the time their coach will not be able to use them as they would like because they have to move first and can't get any assists.

The problem, Marcus, is that the one I'm currently playing a PBEM game against has Block and Tackle. All I can do is try to keep my elves away from it so as not to get squished. So having to Block if next to someone is not particularly a disadvantage. This particular Wild Animal appears to be very well controlled and very easy to direct. I just don't perceive the Wild Animal trait being any negative effect in this situation at all. Oh yeah, he's never failed to roll POW or POW(!) on at least one dice of his two dice blitzes so far, so not being able to use re-rolls hasn't particularly mattered either.

I don't want to add stuff to Wild Animal. I just want to change it completely. Or delete big guys from the game completely to deal with this great ST arms race that seems to have been instigated.

Cheers,
Martyn

Shasta McNasty · Post by **Shasta McNasty** » Tue Dec 17, 2002 2:58 pm

Jeez man, the guys havin a lucky game. Leave him a gymp (uskilled/advanced lineelf) to chew on and ignore him. Your playin elves, so do what elves do, and run the ball round him.

Maedhros · Post by **Maedhros** » Wed Dec 18, 2002 4:55 am

I have to agree with Marcus on this one. Wild Animal makes those big guys not worth taking. It's most evident in teams like Chaos Dwarves who have choice, I can't imagine people ever taking a Minotaur over a Troll simply because Wild Animal is too disabling. Having a Big Guy you have to babysit and constantly protect is just strange.

Has anyone playtested with allowing Wild Animal players to pass up their turn? Would adding 'Bone Head' or whatever be necessary for balance?

Wild Animal as it is seems very out of place when compared to all other skills and traits. I may be wrong, but it seems to be the only trait that forces you to take a certain action (well Frenzy too I guess, but it's not nearly as severe). I really hope Wild Animal is completely redone in the next rule review.

martynq · Post by **martynq** » Wed Dec 18, 2002 11:52 am

I have to agree that the Wild Animal characteristic is very bad for a rookie, but it becomes distinctly less of a problem later. When you compare with Bonehead, the only way an ogre can deal with this is to use something like Pro - he can't make it progressively less of a problem by adding skills (unlike a Wild Animal who can add Block, Tackle and Pro).

I think we need something that doesn't become less of a problem (though using Pro to re-roll a "Does he suffer from WA this turn" would be ok) and isn't quite so certain to cause a turnover.

It needs to be something along the lines of: "Roll a d6, if you get a 1 (or possibly 1-2, or 1-3), then the Wild Animal behaves in an uncontrollable manner." Of course, I haven't specified what this uncontrollable manner is, but such a system would be better than what we have.

Cheers,
Martyn

Marcus · Post by **Marcus** » Wed Dec 18, 2002 12:11 pm

Martyn: but if you make WA even worse so they're crap even when they're skilled up - what's the point of taking them at all? They'll be utterly unusable at rookie level and a complete waste of time.

Any expensive player with 2 skills is going to be nasty. The fact that you can take skills to counteract the weakness of the player does not, in any way, mean you have to make the negative trait works. The fact that their skill choices are limited to skills which help ameliorate their negative trait is punishment enough.

You can't keep hamstringing a player just because he is hard to deal with. I know several coaches who would like to ban Gutter Runners with dauntless and horns....

I do understand your point that it's a stupid rule - I agree with you. I hate the fact that it's a skill that requires strategic decisions (do I field him at all, what skills do I get him) rather than tactical ones (do I use him this turn).

I'm happy with the "go nuts" version myself. The only problem is that one of the BBRC guys (either chet or jkl) mentioned that they are 100% opposed to any situation in which it may prove positive for the WA. This rules out a lot of good and flavoursome WA rules, just because they might not turn out to be negative.

I actually always liked the must move first - roll a 2+ or be forced to blitz. The weakness here is that you have to move them first (already a big disadvantage that many coaches simply don't recognise until they play with a WA) and that, having moved first, they might nick the team's blitz. Sure you might hit someone you want to hit, but more than likely you've just lost your opportunity to hit the ball carrier and have lost a window of opportunity.

Anyhoo, this could go on all year, and probably will.

martynq · Post by **martynq** » Wed Dec 18, 2002 12:20 pm

Marcus wrote:Martyn: but if you make WA even worse so they're crap even when they're skilled up - what's the point of taking them at all? They'll be utterly unusable at rookie level and a complete waste of time.

My point is that we need Wild Animal to be more consistent a characteristic in its effect. With Bone-Head you know where you stand - it always works the same. With Wild Animal it is less worse with Block than without Block. It is less worse if your opponent doesn't leave cannon-fodder next to you than if he does. I think Wild Animal needs to be less bad for a rookie Wild Animal, but then consistently bad from then on.

Does that make more sense?

Cheers,
Martyn

Icedman · Post by **Icedman** » Thu Dec 19, 2002 4:16 am

I can see what you're trying to say Martyn; a consistent WA rule no matter how advanced he may be. But having played a Mino with a Beatsman team for 4 cups in the last league, I can tell you, from personal experience, that even skilled up (he had Block, Pro, Tackle as well), they can/will still cost you turns/games. From what you're saying, it sounds far more like your PBeM opponent is using him well, or you're not quite playing your Elves the way you should. Avoid the RO, if he's that much of a problem; its what happenned to my Mino. Feed him a gimp, as Shasta said; its what we do to BG's around here. In the end, yes, WA can be lessenned by taking Block, Pro, etc, but one could argue that by taking Pro, Leader, etc, you can also lessen Bonehead, RS, etc. AFAIC the only reason to take a WA atm is the fact that his negatrait can be lessenned once he gets skilled up.