Orc team Development

cyagen · Post by **cyagen** » Sun Sep 21, 2008 9:04 am

Side Step would be a good 3rd skill, but as a second skill Guard is a superior skill.

But for a BO the best double is dodge as a 4th skill (after Guard, Block and Stand Firm), before that a double is a waste of TV IMHO.

Post by **DoubleSkulls** » Sun Sep 21, 2008 11:02 am

cyagen wrote:But for a BO the best double is dodge as a 4th skill (after Guard, Block and Stand Firm), before that a double is a waste of TV IMHO.

If I got a double on the 3rd skill I'd take it - and probably take Sidestep too. Sidestep really discourages people from blocking him at all - which means it will have a similar affect to dodge from that angle - about 1/3 of the time he'll get to move and stay on his feet.

Its one of the advantages of SS over SF - people worry about the repositioning threat, and with guard that can be very painful to play against.

Joemanji · Post by **Joemanji** » Sun Sep 21, 2008 1:51 pm

Ian is right IMO. Nothing is better than Guard + Block on a Black Orc. They are the archetypal blockers in the game, and they have one function which they perform well. Block and Guard make them loads better at it. :)Extraneous extras like Side Step etc are simply not that good on them until they have the two basics in Block and Guard. I would pass up doubles, MA, AV and AG if I rolled it on their first two Improvements. I might even consider passing up +1ST in a very short term league, depending on the other races involved.

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Sun Sep 21, 2008 3:13 pm

Joemanji wrote:Ian is right IMO. Nothing is better than Guard + Block on a Black Orc. They are the archetypal blockers in the game, and they have one function which they perform well. Block and Guard make them loads better at it. :)Extraneous extras like Side Step etc are simply not that good on them until they have the two basics in Block and Guard. I would pass up doubles, MA, AV and AG if I rolled it on their first two Improvements. I might even consider passing up +1ST in a very short term league, depending on the other races involved.

See, to me there are two kinds of BOBs. There's the guy on the line and the linebacker behind him. The D-lineman stands on the edges, and either soaks up the first block (strong side) or makes that block harder (weak side), while the linebacker absorbs the blitz (strong side) or repositions himself to support the line/hold the cage/pressure the ball if it goes shallow (weak side).

For the D-lineman, Guard is just awesome, and is a clear choice for first or second skill (probably second, after Block... but I might go for it first on the last guy). Guard is best on the nose, of course, but even if you put the Troll there it's great to have Guard on both ends, as the opponent has to keep up in the Guard war, open with ST5 (and ideally Guard) from the edge at the strong-side end, or cede the line. Then once things are mixed up, this guy can lend assists against two or three blocks instead of just one, or under circumstances where he'd generally b pulled off, and that's where it gets cool. Conversely, Stand Firm and Side Step on this guy are merely useful rather than great, and SF makes a good third selection (for a D-line BOB, SS isn't worth SF over a double, and doubles on skills #1-3 should be ignored; on #4+, it becomes Dodge).

For the linebacker, however, Guard is more limited in application while the positioning skills give him better mileage, because there's nobody standing next to him for him to lend an assist to. Since he's the one actually getting hit, he can't use Guard (can't assist yourself). He's not on the line, so the only way he can use Guard to protect another block is if the opponent blitzes the line, or once things get all mixed up. It's still not bad, but the comparison to Stand Firm becomes more reasonable, as SF is better on turn 1 and Guard is better afterward. Block is the obvious first choice, but this guy has that. Side Step, however, is huge (and WAY better than Stand Firm), great for slipping into cages to knock blockers out of the way, and great for corralling faster ST3 teams against whom more than 3-4 instances of Guard is just overkill anyway (a BOB with Block can frequently make an assist with a block action even if he doesn't have Guard). Remember, pinning the AV7 and AV8 teams is what gets you those all-important line casualties, and that's how your BOBs improve.

PubBowler · Post by **PubBowler** » Mon Sep 22, 2008 10:06 am

I fall in Ian's camp re: BOB skills.

If you want to take SF & SS it's the Blitzers who suit it best IMO due to their better maneuverability (or 3rd skill for BOBs).

MA6, AG3 and faster skill progression are my reasons.

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Mon Sep 22, 2008 2:48 pm

It's a matter of positioning. Blitzers, with MA6 and Block, are best in the wide zones, while BOBs, with MA4, need to be close to the LOS. One guy can't effectively do the other guy's job, so you'll want positioning skills on four players (two Blitzer cornerbacks, two BOB linebackers).

Zoglug · Post by **Zoglug** » Mon Sep 22, 2008 6:04 pm

Very nice discussion, given me a lot to think about.

Master Wang · Post by **Master Wang** » Tue Sep 23, 2008 4:28 am

I agree with Zoglug. This is interesting. If I ever get round to playing more games with my orcs and some of my BOBs skill up, I'll have things to think about. Though I may play it safe to begin with and get block on all four.

It'd be nice if Ian and Matt could get together and play some games against each other with their opposing defensive styles. The theory bowl for both arguments is pretty sound, it'd be nice to see it put to the test.

Post by **DoubleSkulls** » Tue Sep 23, 2008 11:02 am

Unfortunately not very likely at present since we are different continents and I don't play online much!

stashman · Post by **stashman** » Tue Sep 23, 2008 11:40 am

05 Lineorc - Block, AV 8

Give this guy Dirty Player and he will do his work, then if sent off it's no problem with AV8

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Tue Sep 23, 2008 6:00 pm

Master Wang wrote:Though I may play it safe to begin with and get block on all four.

Actually, I think that's one thing Ian and I agree on: Block is the default #1. At least for the first three, Block is an obvious choice. It's best on the linebacker, but it's also very solid on the line (better than Guard, as it lets you time your BOB blocks to help open up assists for your Blitzers and Troll, and keeps the odds of knockdown in the reasonable (5/9) range). For the last guy, if you can dictate a weakside to your oppo, you can open with Guard and put him on the line, but if not then Block first, again.

cyagen · Post by **cyagen** » Tue Sep 23, 2008 6:18 pm

I disagree, guard should be the first default skill for BOB. It gives them more value making them great passive players and free up the blitzers to pick up other skills. 4 BOB and a Troll with guard = nightmare for your opponent.

Post by **DoubleSkulls** » Tue Sep 23, 2008 11:44 pm

cyagen wrote:I disagree, guard should be the first default skill for BOB. It gives them more value making them great passive players and free up the blitzers to pick up other skills. 4 BOB and a Troll with guard = nightmare for your opponent.

I generally agree. In tournament situations I'll just give all the BOBs guard (5 skills is frenzy Blitzer, 4 guard bobs for me).

In a league I find that the later BOBs to get a skill normally needs a bit of help getting more SPPs, so I'll give the first two guard. The fourth always gets block first, and the third either block or guard depending on how skilled the first two are - if they are block/guard then guards don't tend to hit to get cas SPPs and this retards their development.

JaM · Post by **JaM** » Wed Sep 24, 2008 6:24 am

wouldnt mighty blow gain them more spp faster, thus getting them their second skill faster, etc. etc... ?

since we're talking theory-bowl, after all...

Marlow · Post by **Marlow** » Wed Sep 24, 2008 6:41 am

JaM wrote:wouldnt mighty blow gain them more spp faster, thus getting them their second skill faster, etc. etc... ?

In theroy yes, it is just the question of if you want to wait the extra games before having Guard & Block on them.