2nd skill on a ST4 Dark Elf blitzer (+ other advice!)

[mattgslater]

If you're potentially giving up a single chain block, then assuming you have Block, here are your odds.

Nothing or Dodge vs. Tackle:
1/36: Opponent goes down.
3/36: Nothing.
12/36: Get hit again.
20/36: Go down.

1/3 of results yield "get hit again" and of those, 5/9 are "go down" so that's 5/27 (that's 240/1296) plus the base 720 (20 x 36) makes 960/1296, or 160/216, which reduces to 20/27... between 75 and 80 percent.

Dodge:
1/36: Opponent goes down.
3/36: Nothing.
21/36: Get hit again.
11/36: Go down.

Assuming your opponent doesn't have Tackle, you have 11 perms to fall and another 21 to get pushed into a chain-block, yielding another 11/36 to fall... that's 231/1296, plus the 396 perms on the first block, yields 627/1296, close to half.

Side Step:
1/36: Opponent goes down.
8/36: Go where you want.
7/36: Nothing.
20/36: Go down (this extrapolates out to 720/1296).

So if you're giving up one chain-block against no Tackle, Side Step is almost as good as Dodge, as 627 is to 720, as opposed to 960 for any other selection.

Against 1 die, it's even better, as the odds of an unwanted pure push are 1/3 as opposed to 2/9, and the odds of a stumble are 1/6 instead of 1/4. So on a +ST guy, Side Step has the same protective value as Dodge: really, that value is a giant sign that says "DON'T BOTHER."

[Jural]

Also, side step can often be +2MA for a player on an elf squad (go forward instead of back!) If armor's not broken, that's almost the same as if you hadn't been knocked over at all.

Mobility is the key to surviveability with elves, and never underestimate Side Step for that.

EDIT: +2MA, not +3MA!

[Fatlad]

Thanks for all the advice everyone.......now I'm really confused about whether to go for Side Step or Dodge!

I've played with Pro-Elves a bit and I really enjoy Side Step on both the blitzers, but the reroll with Dodge will be useful to get this guy where I need him. That said, I seem to come up against Tackle (& Diving Tackle) quite often on FUMBBL, so Side Step may have more long term use.

[Andromidius]

Personally? Dodge on a normal roll, Guard on a double.

S4 Guarders are pretty tough to deal with for alot of teams. And Tackle won't be all that common early on in the league.

~Andromidius

[PubBowler]

...whilst sidestep is really annoying it doesnt make you any more survivable.

Not true. Side Step makes you a lot more survivable by preventing chain blocks. Makes a big difference, especially on the LOS.

Can't see this player being around on the LOS.

But Side Step does help survivabilty a little but Dodge would be better for this and to get him where you want him to be.

Oh and 3 Guarders would have been great.

[mattgslater]

This guy is really "don't go this way" boy. With Dodge or SS, he declares loudly and clearly "you can't get past me." SS and Frenzy at 31 makes him a superlative corner, as he can really play the wide zones. Otherwise, I'd put him at inside linebacker to deter the blitz and give him a square up on the ball-carrier. With Side Step, you have but to stick him on the ball-carrier and prevent the oppo from getting >1 assist, and there's no effective blitzing him off. Dodge helps there too, but SS is the bigger deal. Leap also helps.

Alternately, give him Tackle or Frenzy, and use him as a safety. Mind you, you already have the best natural safeties in the game (Witch Elves), but ST4/Blockle is pretty scary in that role too.

[AK_Dave]

Dodge first, then Sidestep is my normal DE Blitzer rule. Although I don't think you want to ignore capitalizing on the ST4, and I don't mind breaking that rule for players that roll doubles or a stat boost.

My AG5 Blitzer's progression is Dodge, then I'll be looking for Leap before Sidestep.

For a ST4 Blitzer I'd still want Dodge before anything else but Frenzy or Strip Ball might trump SIdestep with the idea that Sidestep would still be developed later.

[mattgslater]

My AG5 Blitzer's progression is Dodge, then I'll be looking for Leap before Sidestep.

Here I agree. I'd not give that AG5 guy Side Step no matter what: +AG is too expensive to put him in a targeted spot. I'd give him Leap, then Dodge (I could see it going the other way 'round), then Sure Hands, so he can pick up in multiple TZs. This guy starts at safety, pushing your tougher Witch to outside LB (this is a good thing as Frenzy becomes a serious threat in the wide zone). But ST4 on a team whose safeties are already predetermined and that starts with Frenzy players but no Leapers really needs a cover combo, and Side Step is just more important there than is Dodge. Side Step and Leap will make this guy so spectacularly, ridiculously obnoxiously good at bogging down ball carriers in all phases of the defensive game as well as providing an all-purpose offensive blocker/receiver, and will seriously reduce the number of hits he takes.

Alternately, get the +ST guy Frenzy now (giving you 3 of 'em) and Leap next: Leap/Block/Frenzy/ST4 makes wide zone defense virtually impossible and forces cages to build four sides rather than just three sides and the sideline. You'll seldom have to actually leap with him to see a benefit, as you'll be able to pin down key opponents and build an avenue to attack the ball and/or goal-line.

[Jural]

I still don't like leap on my strength 4 elves. Extra armor rolls and more foul opportunities galore! But the threat of a Strength 4 leaper may be enough, in which case it wouldn't actually open you up to more fouls or armor breaks. I haven't tried it out yet.

[mattgslater]

Remember, if you have a TRR, Leap is an 8/9 deal. Oppo has to take that seriously. I don't think you should get Leap on that Blitzer right now no matter what you do: instead go for a precursor skill. If it's a shorter season and you don't think you'll get him to 51, then Dodge (and a spot as an inside linebacker... corner vs. Dwarfs and CDs) might be a better option.

[mattgslater]

Another idea: if you have a Leaping AG5 guy and a Leap/Block Witch, you can pull the same WZ-control gimmicks... it's a little harder and takes an extra action, but you're not risking as much.

[AK_Dave]

Here I agree. I'd not give that AG5 guy Side Step no matter what: +AG is too expensive to put him in a targeted spot. I'd give him Leap, then Dodge

With AG5 Block/Dodge his ground game is tremendous. He dodges through single tackle zones as if they're clear squares, with a Dodge reroll for insurance, and I don't have much hesitation about giving him 1D blitzes if I have a TRR around to protect him. In this form he is already able to bust "loose" cages and screens. With Leap, he'll be able to bust tighter cages.

Sure Hands? It does two things for most people: helps pick up the ball, and cancels Strip Ball. For me, the only purpose would be to cancel Strip Ball. If I want help picking up the ball, I far prefer NOS on an Agility team. That allows him to pick up, throw, or catch regardless of tackle zones. As the "heavy" in a DE "pink team" (Runner/Blitzer), NOS would be golden.

But this goes down to playstyle. My DEs run with 2 Runners and I field them primarily as runningbacks and my preference is to team each one with a Blitzer or Witch Elf as a "heavy". I demand my Heavies to all be fundamentally interchangable Blodgers, so unless I hit a double or a stat thats where they'll start.

Sidenote: a pink team is military rotowing slang for a light/scout helo paired with one or more gunships, with "white" being a pure light team and "red" being a pure heavy team.

Side Step and Leap will make this guy so spectacularly, ridiculously obnoxiously good at bogging down ball carriers in all phases of the defensive game as well as providing an all-purpose offensive blocker/receiver, and will seriously reduce the number of hits he takes.

My thought exactly. Which is why stat or no stat Dodge/Leap/SS or Dodge/SS/Leap is the progression I have in mind for ALL of my Blitzers. Currently, after only 5 games with my active team, they're all Blodgers and one also has +AG. Next: Leap or Sidestep, followed by the "other one" or Nerves of Steel (if available).

I'm imagining this progression for a basic DE Blitzer:
7/3/4/8 (Block), Dodge, Side Step, Leap,

It seems to me that in most cases, if a skill is good and worth taking it is worth taking on as many players as you can and building a strategy around. Leap and Frenzy are both good. Your point that having Frenzy on more than just the two WEs is sound (to me). Or Leap on more than just one or two players. I like the idea of progressing Blitzers and WEs alike into Blodge/SS/Leapers so that any one of the 6 (currently 4 for me) is the same threat.

[mattgslater]

If I want help picking up the ball, I far prefer NOS on an Agility team. That allows him to pick up, throw, or catch regardless of tackle zones.

Nuh-uh. It allows you to throw or catch regardless of tackle zones, but it says nothing about pickup (you need Big Hand for that, which isn't on the table). Throwing in a TZ is seldom required with AG5 and Dodge. And NoS is a doubles skill for a Blitzer. As a Pro Elf coach, I can tell you that NoS rocks, but there's no way I'd take it on a doubles roll for an AG5 player. In fact, I'd ignore doubles on the guy entirely.

[Fatlad]

I played again last night and althougth the ST4 Blitzer got a few SPP, he is still short of his next skill.

However, I now have a new problem - what to buy with my winnings.

My second Blitzer skilled and rolled my first (and only!) non-double, so I gave hime Dodge. I'm now glad I chose +MV twice as another Lineman rolled double three and got Guard. The +MV Linemen have proved invaluable as they offer another scoring threat not needing gfi's to get into the end zone in two turns (I tend to play a short passing game, so this is very helpful to me). The team is now:

Blitzer: +ST (close to his next skill)
Blitzer: Dodge
Lineman: +MV
Lineman: +MV
Lineman: Guard
Lineman: Guard
Lineman:
Lineman:
Lineman:
Lineman:
Lineman: MNG
FF = 7
RR = 2
W/T/L = 2/1/0
Treasury = 120,000gp

As an aside, am I going to regret all these doubles? Should I have ignored a double or two and chosen some Block or Dodge?

My real question now is: what should I buy?
I can afford a Thrower (this is LRB4 so he starts with Pass), Blitzer or Witch Elf. I have done a lot of passing so far, so am tempted by the Thrower, but this is a Dark Elf team and perhaps I really should try and play them differently from my other elf teams, so would the Blitzer or Witch Elf be a better choice?

[DoubleSkulls]

I'd take the witch.