Amazons - Theoretical LRB7 Discussion

Jural · Post by **Jural** » Tue Nov 04, 2008 6:40 am

I imagine Amazons differently from everyone else. Great hunters, fast runners, no innate Blood Bowl skill.

0-16 Linewoman 7 3 3 7 Sprint GA/SP 50k
0-2 Throwers 7 3 3 7 Accurate, Sprint GAP/S 80k
0-2 Catchers 8 2 3 7 Diving Catch, Jump Up GA/SP 80k
0-4 Blitzers 7 3 3 8 Wrestle, Sprint GAS/P 90k

Maybe the Catchers could be Dodge, Diving Catch as well, I'm not sure.

stashman · Post by **stashman** » Wed Nov 05, 2008 9:24 pm

Jural wrote:I imagine Amazons differently from everyone else. Great hunters, fast runners, no innate Blood Bowl skill.

0-16 Linewoman 7 3 3 7 Sprint GA/SP 50k
0-2 Throwers 7 3 3 7 Accurate, Sprint GAP/S 80k
0-2 Catchers 8 2 3 7 Diving Catch, Jump Up GA/SP 80k
0-4 Blitzers 7 3 3 8 Wrestle, Sprint GAS/P 90k

Maybe the Catchers could be Dodge, Diving Catch as well, I'm not sure.

ME LIKE!!! Thrower with Accurate is like a javelin hunter. But maybe do 0-4 throwers and NO CATCHERS!!! Everyone can take Catch so "catchers" are not needed. The "broken" thing is 0-4 throwers with access to nerves of steel, dump-off and catch!

0-16 Linewoman 7 3 3 7 Sprint GA/SP 50k
0-4 Throwers 7 3 3 7 Accurate, Sprint GAP/S 80k
0-4 Blitzers 7 3 3 8 Wrestle, Sprint GAS/P 90k

AK_Dave · Post by **AK_Dave** » Wed Nov 05, 2008 9:51 pm

I may be dense, but what is wrong with the existing Amazons?

Norse are a basic human statline with light armor and Block. Amazons, currently, are a basic human statline with ligt armor and Dodge. What a perfect counterpoint to each other.

I freely admit that the Norse are the more characterful of the two. So?

Thus far the Amazon ideas, while interesting, range from "too complicated for PBEM" to "sprinty". They're cool ideas, don't misunderstand, but I don't understand what is broken about the existing Amazon team.

Andromidius · Post by **Andromidius** » Thu Nov 06, 2008 6:25 am

Mass access to a non-normal skill, and easy access to an entire team of Blodgers. That's the issue.

~Andromidius

AK_Dave · Post by **AK_Dave** » Thu Nov 06, 2008 6:45 am

So... they're like slow handicapped *Elfs.

Darkson · Post by **Darkson** » Thu Nov 06, 2008 9:16 am

Elfs with 4 players that start with Blodge and can easily get Guard.

Aliboon · Post by **Aliboon** » Thu Nov 06, 2008 10:20 am

So... they're like slow handicapped *Elfs.

I suppose you could put it that way, but they play very different, a blodge amazon lino will be 70k at 6SPPs, a blodge elf lino 110k at 16SPPs.

Amazon play bash with their S skill access blitzers and AG3, most elves don't.

Norse are a basic human statline with light armor and Block. Amazons, currently, are a basic human statline with ligt armor and Dodge. What a perfect counterpoint to each other.

The Norse were that in LRB4, they're a bit different now (and pretty much universally agreed, better for it).

Joemanji · Post by **Joemanji** » Thu Nov 06, 2008 11:30 am

AK_Dave wrote:I may be dense, but what is wrong with the existing Amazons?

The problems with Amazons IMO are:

1) They overpeform relative to their win %. The way they can struggle against Tackle teams means they never look overpowered. They have an overall record of 0.548 in LRB5 games. But if you take Dwarfs and CDs out of their results they have a record of 0.568.

To put that into context, in LRB5 games currently Undead have 0.571, WEs 0.559 and Dwarfs 0.542. The next best teams are Lizzies and CDs on 0.527.

Now Undead, WEs and Dwarfs have been nerfed in LRB6. That means that all Amazons have to do is get lucky and not face any Dwarfs or CDs, and they are going to be the best tournament team by miles.

2) Their play style is boring and counter intuitive. They play bash yet they are an AV7 team.

stormmaster1 · Post by **stormmaster1** » Fri Nov 07, 2008 4:25 am

I know we all love coming up with new statlines and using less common skills, but would 8237 dodge, catch be an obvious choice for an amazon catcher. Yes it's the same as a human catcher, but that isn't neccessarily a problem when the rest of the team is different.

SillySod · Post by **SillySod** » Fri Nov 07, 2008 5:30 am

How does it look giving them surefeet instead of dodge? (keep the statline) that might make them an interesting variation on the skaven linerat.

One problem with alot of the options is it dosent lead to a team which is very survivable. If you want the team to be durable (imo making it easier to balance) then wrestle should be considered. Wrestle has a big advantage over dodge in that it dosent imediately get ripped apart by teams with tackle. If you give the linewomen wrestle and agility access (only) then they can choose two skill paths: sidestep, and dodge. Sidestep is at least as good as dodge so I believe amazon coaches will have a genuine choice of development for their team. Then all you have to do is make the positionals interesting and fill some of the gaps left by a lack of general access on the linewomen.

Post by **DoubleSkulls** » Fri Nov 07, 2008 5:54 am

stormmaster1 wrote:I know we all love coming up with new statlines and using less common skills, but would 8237 dodge, catch be an obvious choice for an amazon catcher. Yes it's the same as a human catcher, but that isn't neccessarily a problem when the rest of the team is different.

That started off with taking the 8237 catcher off the human team - so the human team get a S3 catcher instead.

I quite like 6337 sprint GA/SP linewomen. I think I prefer jump up instead as it makes for a very different play style. Jump Up also may affect survival rates since marking a prone line woman becomes more tricky - enabling them to avoid being pinned as much (a la Fend).

AK_Dave · Post by **AK_Dave** » Fri Nov 07, 2008 7:32 pm

Darkson wrote:Elfs with 4 players that start with Blodge and can easily get Guard.

They're AG3 and MV6. They're hardly even Pro Elfs. Their only compensation: overpriced Blitzers with Blodge. If you can't out-CAS the Amazons in the first half, you're not trying. Or you're playing Wood Elfs.

AK_Dave · Post by **AK_Dave** » Fri Nov 07, 2008 7:36 pm

Joemanji wrote:1) They overpeform relative to their win %.

How do you define this objectively with statistics?

They have an overall record of 0.548 in LRB5 games. But if you take Dwarfs and CDs out of their results they have a record of 0.568.

I suspect that you can manipulate plasmoid's statistics to make similar claims about many other teams. Thus bringing to mind Will Rogers old adage: there are liars, damn liars, and statisticians.

2) Their play style is boring and counter intuitive. They play bash yet they are an AV7 team.

The second half of the statement I agree with. The first half, the claim that this is counter-intuitive, is in my opinion simply part of their schtick. They're have the ability to be both strong and fragile at the same time, which in my opinion is perfect for Amazons.

AK_Dave · Post by **AK_Dave** » Fri Nov 07, 2008 7:49 pm

I guess what it comes down to is that Amazons are what they are. They don't win more than their bracket suggests they should, unless you start playing with the stats and ignoring chunks of the data.

Everything else, to me, is personal opinion about whether or not the existing team format is "good" or "bad".

I'm not offended by the way it is now. It is what it is. Thats my personal opinion.

Some people don't like it the way that it is. That is also personal opinion.

I don't question that other people might hold opinions that differ from mine. I am not seeking to criticize opinions that differ from mine. But I'd like to understand objective justification, not just opinion, that explains why there is a problem that requires a change.

Then, at that point, I'd suggest that any change that is actually needed ought not drastically change the character or feel of the existing team. If a change is needed to bring the team statistically into line (which I'm not convinced is the case), then that change ought to be a minor tweak and not a complete rewrite.

SillySod · Post by **SillySod** » Fri Nov 07, 2008 8:38 pm

AK_Dave wrote:
Darkson wrote:Elfs with 4 players that start with Blodge and can easily get Guard.
They're AG3 and MV6. They're hardly even Pro Elfs. Their only compensation: overpriced Blitzers with Blodge. If you can't out-CAS the Amazons in the first half, you're not trying. Or you're playing Wood Elfs.

Elves dont start with as many players, RR, or nearly as much dodge. Elves also totally lack strength access. As comparisons go.... thats pretty weak, if anything direct comparison suggests that amazons are considerably stronger than elves. If you think that you can out-cas amazons without much trouble then you very clearly havent played a half decent amazon player, let alone one like Lucifer or Pippy.

If you are looking for reasons to change them other than their competitivenes then consider:
- linewomen who get block are a 20k cheaper version of a positional, that dosent happen anywhere else in BB
- dodge is slightly better than block as a starting skill, also while norse with dodge are 80k, amazons with block are 20k (and dont require doubles)
- the positionals are pretty dull with no stat variation or interesting skills
- relatively dull playstyle (cage, cage, and cage again)
- the dorf vs zon effect, annoying in closed formats but massively undesirable in open formats