Double Skill on a 2008RulesReview Vamp

[quozl]

Hiya lads,

I'm new to blood-bowl, and 3 games new to Vamps, and I've hit a bit of a dilemma.

The norm for Vamps online seems to be that they don't need double skills, they want either block/dodge/pro or passive skills like guard that stop them needing activating. But has this changed now with the 2008 rules review?

I rolled a double on 1 of my 2 vamps last night - newbie team, she has block already, and i just gave the other vamp block.

I was thinking of giving her accurate because:

You no longer lose your stated action as long as you can bite a thrall, so I don't have to worry about her refusing to pass as long as I keep a thrall around. And I'll usually have a thrall around.

She's a nice ball carrier with ST4, block and AG4 to dodge away from TZs.

Vamps aren't very fast, and being able to switch sides of the pitch or move the ball a bit faster when under pressure would be nice. I couldn't out-maneouver an orc team full of blitzers and speed 5 line-men last night, and I sure couldn't out-bash them. Being able to throw short passes on a 2+ could have been very useful - I've got 5 team re-rolls to help thralls or vamps catch.

I could give her strong arm, but apart from the extra +10TV, accurate is simply better right? it means I can throw a quick pass on a 2+ in a single TZ.

Next skill could either be Dodge or Strong Arm. Long passes on a 2+ sounds amazing?

Is there something obvious I'm missing? Or was the reason people hated passing Vamps because of the previous OFAB rule?

[DoubleSkulls]

All double access gives is passing skills.

I think there are four viable choices - pass, accurate, NoS and Leader. Dump Off, HMP and safe throw aren't really worth it IMO.

Leader - if you are reroll lite then this is an easy (and cheap) way to add another reroll - and one that adds less to your TV and an extra one does. Given the vulnerability of thralls I'd give a vampire leader if I wanted one on the team.

NoS - Catching and throwing whilst ignoring TZ is quite handy - especially on AG4. This is more of a receiver or ball retriever skill.

Pass/Accurate - the reason for either is the same. You want a reliable passing game, and with the change to BL, its easier to develop a vamp to do this. IMO Pass is better than Accurate. If you don't have a reroll available this turn then pass is better. Long Bombs (the worst case) are a 5+ roll - which is 55% with pass, and only 50% with accurate. Even on a 6 accurate is only marginally better (33% vs 30%). The relative odds only get better with shorter range. Further more the next skill can be strong arm even without the double - so you can get a 2/2/3/4 rerollable pass at 31 SPPs (or sure hands).

I'd probably take the passing option - either pass or accurate - but I don't think either of the other options are bad ones.

[quozl]

Thanks a lot Ian, that's very helpful. I hadn't even thought of pass for some reason.

I have 5 team re-rolls (2 vamps, 9 thralls, 5 RR starting), so I guess I'd often have a RR available for the pass. Making accurate a good bit better.

But, then again, I might need that RR for the catcher - I sure amn't getting the catch skill on any thrall, I might as well put a big 'blitz me' sign on them.

It's a difficult decision, that's good, I like that doesn't seem to be an obviously right build

[edit]
I can almost duplicate the affects of accurate with strong arm, but I can't get pass without a double. So I'll take pass, and then strong arm on my next normal skill-up. Thanks Ian [/edit]

[dpwright]

Unless you already have at least 5 rerolls (which I would say is recommended for 3 vampires) then take leader; if you have them, take pass!

[Ullis]

Edit: I think Pass + Strong Arm is a pretty good combination and probably better than Accurate + Strong Arm. That's two skills though and I don't know if a dedicated vampire passer is a good build.

---

I'd rather take Accurate. Only two vamps and 5 rerolls means that most turns when you'd like to pass you will have a reroll available at the start of the turn. Now if you're contemplating passing, then that's probably on the high-list of your to-do list for the turn, which means you're likely to do it quite early after any non-risk moves.

The shortcoming of Pass is that there's nothing you can do to better the odds. They're always the same no matter how many rerolls you have. With accurate the chances of success go up considerably if you do have rerolls. This matters especially in the long pass and long bomb level. Accurate also lowers the chances of fumbling.

The chances of failing to throw an accurate pass are (no reroll - with reroll):

Quick pass:
- No skills: 1/6 - 1/36
- Accurate: 1/6 - 1/36
- Pass: 1/36 - 1/36

Short pass:
- No skills: 1/3 - 1/9
- Accurate: 1/6 - 1/36
- Pass: 1/9 - 1/9

Long pass:
- No skills: 1/2 - 1/4
- Accurate: 1/3 - 1/9
- Pass: 1/4 - 1/4

Long Bomb:
- No skills: 2/3 - 4/9
- Accurate: 1/2 - 1/4
- Pass: 4/9 - 4/9

At the quick and short pass level, the differences are minor, but at the long pass and long bomb level the differences are more pronounced. It's the same thing if you get any negative modifiers to the roll, from TZ's for example, although that matters less with vamps as dodging away is a better option usually.

[quozl]

Thanks guys.

One problem with using the team re-roll on accurate is that I'm likely throwing to a thrall, so catching on a 3+. So a team re-roll is very useful there.

On the plus side, a thrall failing to catch the ball is likely to be worlds better than a vamp fumbling it. Fumbles, in my limited experience seem more likely to get me in trouble, as usually my opponents players are converging on the thrower in bigger numbers than the catcher. Plus at least the catcher is usually down field a bit.

At least I don't feel forced to take dodge, pro or guard like I probably would have before the 2008 Rules Review changes. I love the ability to keep the declared action even on an OFAB.

[Grumbledook]

i'd ignore it and take a normal skill

[Ullis]

Wow. I completely forgot about the catching part. That's theory bowl for you.

[Andromidius]

Take Pass.

The main reason is this: you need your rerolls for failed Bloodlust tests and for rerolling double skulls. A 'free' reroll for the pass is much preferable in my opinion.

Next skill should be Sure Hands to pick the ball up in the first place. Those ones always crop up when you least need it. Then get Strong Arm.

But by all means, if you roll another double skill increase, get Accurate.

~Andromidius

[Jural]

I'd probably ignore the double, but amongst passing skills, Nerves of Steel is the best choice in my opinion.

You have to think how the Vampire is going to get the ball into his hands. I doubt you will be picking the ball up with him on a regular basis, so he's going to receive a hand-off. Now factor in all the times he will be in a tackle zone when he's throwing, catching, or handing off (remembering that he won't always have his pick of squares when moving.) Having the freedom to end in a tackle zone and make the pass or catch when marked seems much more important to how I play vamps than making them even better at getting rid of the ball!

[SillySod]

Ignoring the double is still perfectly sensible, you arent missing out on any really good tricks.

Throwing vampires are unnecessary and occasionally unreliable but they are fun and do put a completely new slant on the team. With the rules review you can potentially bite a thrall, where before you risked losing your RR before you're even started throwing it. Pass is definately the best of the throwing skills because it saves RR and makes the catch (and subsequent run toawrds the TD line) much less likely to fail. SA should be just as good as accurate for the purposes of passing with vampires so take that next along with dodge (99.9% of the time you wont be throwing from a tacklezone).

NOS will be a waste of time and TV... although it will be helpful at times there are vanishingly few situations where you really need it. Block, dodge and most of the skills you can take anyway will give you a better return than NOS and they're cheaper.

Leader - a really nice skill but I much prefer it on a thrall, vampires work best when the vampires have a bunch of skills on them. Potentially a good choice but you will know better than me if it is worth it for your team and playstyle.

[grampyseer]

amongst passing skills, Nerves of Steel is the best choice in my opinion.

I agree with Jural wholeheartedly.


And kudos to you for trying vamps as a new player...I'm STILL finding them demoralizing, and I've been at it for years!!

[Jural]

...

NOS will be a waste of time and TV... although it will be helpful at times there are vanishingly few situations where you really need it...

I think I could use NOS... but I don't think any of the passing skills are worth the 10k extra.

[quozl]

And kudos to you for trying vamps as a new player...I'm STILL finding them demoralizing, and I've been at it for years!!

I think I'm lucky to be coming in at a good time for vamps. The cap on bites being BH is nice, but being able to complete your action even on a bloodlust is huge for me.

I don't think I'd enjoy randomly getting my action taken away, whereas I'm ok with getting screwed because I didn't move a thrall to the right position, or I've not enough thralls left.

Plus so far, the vamps are really cool. They're like Ninjas Slightly stupid Ninjas, but Ninjas none the less

And I made a cool looking team using models from tritex - 1 halfling vampire, his bikini clad vampire mistress, 11 assorted naked/semi naked thrall ladies (with a few snips to remove weapons), and 1 token mad-man in a straight jacket - renfield style.

My fiancee says it's the geekiest thing I've ever done ) And I'm a wargamer!

[quozl]

And the replies to this thread have really exceeded my expectations, thanks a lot guys.

I'm going to go with pass, but before this thread I'd not even considered pass, or nerves of steel (which is another really interesting one, for helping throw, catch and pick up the ball, all things I do with my vamp).