Diving Tackle only on one roll in RR2008?

[gandresch]

Hi,

in the RR2008 and LRB5 there is an explicite difference between the Dodge-Roll itself and the ReRoll of the Dodge-Roll (in the explenation of the Diving Tackle skill). In RR2008 a certain passage is left out, so that the explanation is not clear in this case any more.

I'll copy the passages here and mark the differences:

new Diving Tackle RR2008 (Agility)
The player may use this skill after an opposing player attempts to dodge
out of any of his tackle zones. The player using this skill is Placed Prone
in the square vacated by the dodging player, but do not make an Armour
or Injury roll for them. The opposing player must then subtract 2 from his
Dodge roll for leaving the player's tackle zone. If a player is attempting to
leave the tackle zone of several players that have the Diving Tackle skill,
then only one of the opposing players may use Diving Tackle. Diving
Tackle may be used on a re-rolled dodge if not declared for use on the
first Dodge roll. Once the dodge is resolved but before any armour roll for
the opponent (if needed), the Diving Tackle Player is Placed Prone in the
square vacated by the dodging player but do not make an Armour or
Injury roll for the Diving Tackle player.

old Diving Tackle LRB5 (Agility)
The player may use this skill after an opposing player attempts to dodge
out of any of his tackle zones. The player using this skill is Placed Prone
in the square vacated by the dodging player, but do not make an Armour
or Injury roll for them. The opposing player must then subtract 2 from his
Dodge roll for leaving the player's tackle zone. If a player is attempting to
leave the tackle zone of several players that have the Diving Tackle skill,
then only one of the opposing players may use Diving Tackle. Diving
Tackle may be used on a re-rolled dodge if not declared for use on the
first Dodge roll. In addition, if Diving Tackle is used on the 1st Dodge roll,
both the -2 modifier and tackle zone still apply to the Dodge re-roll.

In the old rules of LRB5 it says concretely, that it applys on the second dodge roll as well, if used on the first dodge roll. This passage is left out in RR2008, where only the method of Diving Tackling is explained.

So, what to do now?
Does in RR2008 Diving Tackle still work on both or not?

Greets,
gan

[Grumbledook]

any modifers that apply to the first roll automatically apply to the second roll

that is stated somewhere in the rulebook

you can however use diving tackle on the second roll even if it wasn't need on the first roll

say a player doding away needed a 3+ and rolled a 1, they used a reroll (team or dodge skill) and got a 4, you can then use diving tackle to make that a 2 so they fail the dodge again

[gandresch]

Thank you! I knew the old rule. Just wondered, why the most important sentece in this case was left out...

So nothing has changed, nice

[Gimli]

Here is what I think the new wording is trying to accomplish. I'm hoping someone from the rules committee can clarify.

The dodger rolls. If he would fail the roll (whether with or without the application of the DT -2 modifier), he can choose to reroll, whether via the Dodge skill or by use of a TRR. If he would fail the second time on account of the DT skill, the DT player chooses at that time, i.e. after the RR, to use the skill, and cause the dodge to fail.

In other words, the DT player does not go prone after the first roll which leads to the RR, as that roll did not really occur - it is replaced by the RR result. The main significance of this is that the DT player should only go prone if he chooses to use the skill after the RR, and he gets to see what the result of the second roll is.

Practically, this could make a huge difference. Say on the first dodge roll the dodger would pass but for DT, so he elects to RR. If on the second roll the dodger fails without the DT modifier, the DT player gets to stay standing.

Comments on this interpretation invited.

[DoubleSkulls]

Nice try, but not quite.

The rewording is to prevent beardy Monkey Hangers who argued that if you went prone on the first roll then you couldn't use tackle or prehensile tail on the 2nd roll.

If you use DT on either the first or second roll you go prone - but only once the dodge is fully resolved.

[Gimli]

Not to get too lawyerly, but isn't the effect of a RR to deem the first roll to have not occurred? For example, if I roll a both down with two players who don't have block, I don't put the two players down, RR and then see if I can get something better (as the blocker) on the reroll? Rather, I leave both players standing - as if nothing happened - reroll the dice, and then apply the result, whatever that might be. It's as if the first dice roll never happened in the game.

Why shouldn't it be the same on the dodge/DT? It is quite clear the DT player gets to see the dice roll before deciding to use the skill. I'm just saying that the dodger has to decide first which roll he is going to use. Only then should the DT player have to decide to use the skill.

In other words I wouldn't consider the dodge "fully resolved" until the dodger chooses which dice roll he is going to use, i.e. he will keep the first one or reroll it. Only after the dodger has made that choice, and there is a "final" dice roll for the DT player to consider, is there a roll that the DT player can choose to modify.

And yes, I play Dwarves and have a player with DT that I would like to get more use out of!

[GalakStarscraper]

There is no need to use Dodge if the roll succeeded. So I succeed ... I don't need to then declare I'm going to use Dodge ... not unless you do something (use Diving Tackle) to make it fail. Once the roll is a failure only then do I need to announce the use of Dodge.

At this point Diving Tackle has been used ... nothing will change that.

You then have the player use Dodge and roll again and the Diving Tackle modifier still applies. Even if Diving Tackle is not needed on the 2nd roll .... it was still used which means once the Dodge has been fully resolved ... the Diving Tackle player will be Placed Prone.


Galak

[Mad Jackal]

There is no need to use Dodge if the roll succeeded. So I succeed ... I don't need to then declare I'm going to use Dodge ... not unless you do something (use Diving Tackle) to make it fail. Once the roll is a failure only then do I need to announce the use of Dodge.

At this point Diving Tackle has been used ... nothing will change that.

You then have the player use Dodge and roll again and the Diving Tackle modifier still applies. Even if Diving Tackle is not needed on the 2nd roll .... it was still used which means once the Dodge has been fully resolved ... the Diving Tackle player will be Placed Prone.


Galak

and as this is now specified that the player is still standing while the dodge re-roll is being made, so tackle and prehensile tail are more easily seen to still be in effect as well. I get it..

Now I get it.

[Gimli]

There is no need to use Dodge if the roll succeeded. So I succeed ... I don't need to then declare I'm going to use Dodge ... not unless you do something (use Diving Tackle) to make it fail. Once the roll is a failure only then do I need to announce the use of Dodge.

At this point Diving Tackle has been used ... nothing will change that.

You then have the player use Dodge and roll again and the Diving Tackle modifier still applies. Even if Diving Tackle is not needed on the 2nd roll .... it was still used which means once the Dodge has been fully resolved ... the Diving Tackle player will be Placed Prone.


Galak

Ok. Let's apply this logic to a case involving a player without Tackle throwing a one dice block on a defender who has Dodge. The attacker rolls defender stumbles. After seeing that dice roll, the defender elects to use his dodge skill, which turns the result into a push.

The defender has used a skill (Dodge) to cause the attacker to "fail" (he wants to knock down the defender). In concept, this is exactly the same as a defender using the DT skill to cause a player on the attacking team to fail a dodge. In each case there has been a failure by the attacker to achieve the desired result (be it a knock down or a successful dodge) because of the use of a skill by the defending team. As set out above, "only then does [the attacking player] need to announce the use of [a TRR or other skill which would allow the reroll of the unsuccessful result caused the defender's use of a skill]".

Following the above logic, the dodge skill "has been used ... nothing will change that." Well, that isn't the case. If it was, the player who used dodge to turn the defender stumbles result into a push would get pushed back, and then the RR would occur. But that isn't what happens. The use of the TRR means the coaches treat the first roll as having not occurred, the players stay where they were before the first dice roll, and the attacking coach rolls the dice again. After looking at the second dice roll, the defending coach gets a second opportunity to choose to use his player's Dodge skill - he is not bound by his choice of the skill on the first attempt.

So when a defender uses the Dodge skill its use is ignored in the game once the TRR is announced - the defender is not pushed back, and the coaches treat the first roll as having never occurred. Further, on the RR, the defending coach has a second opportunity to decide to use the skill.

Ok, if this is so, why is a defender's use of the Dodge skill treated as having not happened once a RR is announced but the defender's use of the DT skill is treated as having happened when the RR is announced? Why in the Dodge scenario is the first roll treated for all purposes as having not occurred, but in the DT scenario the defender's use of the DT skill is still considered to have occurred? Why in the Dodge scenario does the defending coach get a second chance to decide to use the skill, but in the DT scenario the second coach is bound by his choice on the first roll?

To my mind the bottom line is that in all cases a RR should result in the first roll being treated in all respects as having not occurred. Further, in all cases involving a RR the defending player should always get to see the result of the second roll before deciding to use the skill.

Sorry if I went on a bit there, but is seems to me that at a minimum the player using DT is being treated unfairly if the dodging player rerolls the dodge.

[Grumbledook]

diving tackle modifies with a numerical difference requiring a different target to get the desired result

dodge on the block result doesn't change the initial desired result

and who the hell would choose to use dodge to change into a pushback on a first result but not if that came up again on the reroll

though for the record I don't think you can do that (apart from frenzy but that is 2 separate blocks not a rerolled 2nd block) as anything that modifies the first roll, applies to the second, that is in the rulebook

so on that basis, your post on "using logic" in fact doesn't use logic, as logic would dictate that you follow the rules

so hope I cleared that up

[Gimli]

diving tackle modifies with a numerical difference requiring a different target to get the desired result

dodge on the block result doesn't change the initial desired result

and who the hell would choose to use dodge to change into a pushback on a first result but not if that came up again on the reroll

though for the record I don't think you can do that (apart from frenzy but that is 2 separate blocks not a rerolled 2nd block) as anything that modifies the first roll, applies to the second, that is in the rulebook

so on that basis, your post on "using logic" in fact doesn't use logic, as logic would dictate that you follow the rules

so hope I cleared that up

Hmmm... with respect, I don't see why the fact that one skill results in a numerical dice roll modification and another results in a different combat result makes any difference. In each case the defender has used a skill to change the result of a dice roll by the attacker to the defender's advantage

(I'm not sure I understand your second comment. Using dodge on a defender stumbles dice roll DOES change the combat result. The defender gets pushed back and knocked down if he doesn't use it. He remains standing and is just pushed back if he does: see p. 10 of the rules. However, once a TRR is announced - no push back occurs.)

Again, with respect, you haven't really explained why i) in one case the first roll is treated in all respects as having not occurred (no push back occurs), but in another case it is not (the DT player is placed prone), and ii) in one case the player gets a second chance to decide to use a skill after seeing the dice roll but not in another. Page 14 says you always get to see the dice roll before you choose to use the skill.

(As an aside the defending player might decide not to use Dodge the second time if he realizes the attacking player has Frenzy, and a push back would allow the attacker a chance at a crowd surf.)

So no, while I hope I'm not being too difficult I'm afraid I have to say you haven't cleared it up. I still think the coach with DT should get to keep his player standing and a second chance to decide to use DT after he sees the RR, just like the coach with Dodge gets to keep his player standing (in his original square) and a second chance to decide to use Dodge after the RR.

[Grumbledook]

a player doesn't get a second choice to decide to not use dodge to modify a block result on the second roll if they used it on the first roll

I don't understand where you got that idea from

as I said anything that modifies the first dice roll applies for the reroll as well

[Darkson]

Using Dodge in a passive way (i.e. when blocked) isn't limited to once per turn, as it's not being used in the players turn (only the reroll to dodge is limited to one-per-action). In theory, a player can use his Dodge skill passively 22 times per turn (11 players with Pro).

[Darkson]

I still think the coach with DT should get to keep his player standing and a second chance to decide to use DT after he sees the RR, just like the coach with Dodge gets to keep his player standing (in his original square) and a second chance to decide to use Dodge after the RR.

Er - that's what the rules say.

[voyagers_uk]