Stand Firm vs Strip Ball

[Skipper]

The following question came up in our discussion on the team development forum. I seem to be in the minority, so I am probably wrong, but I'd still like a clarification.

Does strip ball work against standfirm if the player refuses to be pushed?

the stand firm skill rule reads...

"A player with this skill may choose not to be pushed back as the result of a block. He may choose to ignore being pushed by the "Pushed" results, and to have knockdown results knock the player down in the square where he started."

Strip Ball: ......applying a "Push" or Defender Stumbles" result will cause the opposing player to drop the ball in the square they are pushed to, .....


1. The stand firm player ignores the push result.
2. Since the ball only comes out in the square he/she is pushed to, and the standfirm player is not pushed to a square the stripball skill by its own wording wouldn't work.


My interpretation seems to show that there are two reasons this skill fails if the standfirm player refuses to be pushed.,


Of course, I could be wrong, but I can't see how to interpret this differently.

Respectfully,

Skipper

[Grumbledook]

stripball applies and it scatters from the square the stand firm player is in

same as frenzy gets the second block on a pushback even if the stand firm player hasn't moved

[GalakStarscraper]

1. The stand firm player ignores the push result.

He ignores the result not the fact that the result was rolled. Strip Ball is based on what is rolled ... not on what is done.

2. Since the ball only comes out in the square he/she is pushed to, and the standfirm player is not pushed to a square the stripball skill by its own wording wouldn't work.

He was pushed zero squares so the square he was pushed to is the one he is standing in.

IE ... Strip Ball works on Stand Firm just as Frenzy works on Stand Firm.

Galak

[Skipper]

Thanks for the prompt reply. As I said, this probably would never have come up in our league, but I thought I'd dig for an official answer.

Anyway this could be cleared up language wise in LRB 6. It shouldn't be too much of a change.

By the way, we love this game and the evolution of it to the next revision really looks good.

Skipper

[GalakStarscraper]

My problem here with the requested clear-up is that the language in Strip Ball already seems pretty clear to me. I understand you had issues with it ... but I'm not sure why even with what you wrote.

Look at the Strip Ball text.

It triggers based on a result being rolled. Stand Firm doesn't change the rolled result so this trigger is still clear.

If the trigger has occured than the ball is going to come loose so we need to figure out where from ... it says the square the player is pushed to ... which Stand Firm says that any push against him in effect pushes him to the square he is already in ... thus scatter from there.

I realize you didn't read this but I'm not sure why not ... and such ... don't see how to reword it and am not sure if it really does need reworded.

Hope that makes sense.

Galak

[quozl]

I also was un-sure about this interaction.

'to drop the ball in in the square they are pushed to'.

You cannot be 'pushed to' a location where you already are. That seems like incorrect english to me, the 'to' part indicates motion I believe.

So if stand firm stops you being moved, then you cannot fulfill the criteria for being 'pushed to'. So therefore strip ball does not meet it's triggering condition, so therefore it doesn't trigger, and the ball is not dropped.

I'm trying to think of a clearer way to word one or other of the skills. I understand your difficulty!

[Grumbledook]

it has always been the case with strip ball and frenzy that it is what is on the dice that is important

not what happens with the interaction of the players

seems this wording has been removed from the rulebook now, or moved elsewhere

used to be at the start of the skills listings iirc

[GalakStarscraper]

So it needs to say this to be clear?

'to drop the ball in in the square they are pushed to (even if they are 'pushed' to the square they are already in)'

and to be clear ... nothing in Strip Ball says the player HAS to be pushed in order to trigger. The only trigger described in the skill is the dice roll result.

I honestly think Strip Ball is being read into too hard if you see a trigger requirement with the descriptive text on where the ball scatters from.

Galak

[quozl]

That would make it clearer imo.

I was still able to work out the correct interpretation of the skills' interaction, but the 'pushed to' bit struck me as wrong so I wasn't sure I was interpreting things correctly.

This would mean that I would have been sure I had things right.

[Turin]

As I said, this probably would never have come up in our league, but I thought I'd dig for an official answer.

With occasional dwarf players in our league, I'm quite happy, you brought up that problem

[Jural]

I also see this as unclear. The Strip Ball text refers to the square the player is pushed to. With Stand Firm, he is not pushed to a square.

The idea of a 0 square push is certainly not the intuitive basis which will reach consensus in all leagues, so I wouldn't mind seeing it addressed.

Basically, the text of Stand Firm is 100% clear. But the text of Strip Ball is a little unclear. On the one hand the ball comes loose whenever a pushback result is applied (Whether or not the player actually moves.) But on the other hand, the text makes specific reference to the square he is pushed into. Obviously a literal interpretation of the second part can not be resolved, as he is not pushed into his square.

Basically, what does it mean to jump 0 feet into the air? What does it mean to move forward 0 feet? Some would claim it means you don't act at all, and that it is the same as being motionless. Others would claim you actually jump or move, but a null quantity. People in the former category would be confused, people in the latter category would agree with Galak.

So... in my humble opinion, it could do with some clarifying

[Grumbledook]

guess those lines I referred too earlier that seem to have been removed were done so prematurely

[s031720]

The skill description might be better off with "where the player end up" instead of where the player was pushed to.

[Jural]

and to be clear ... nothing in Strip Ball says the player HAS to be pushed in order to trigger. The only trigger described in the skill is the dice roll result.

I 100% agree... Except that the ball has to scatter from somewhere. The fact that there is no square the player is pushed to can definitely make this confusing.

But as I've said many times before... if these are the sorts of issues which are being quibbled over now, the rules are in good shape

[Skipper]

I also think the word "Apply" could be converted to "selected" as applied seems to indicate an action was accomplished, which in the case of standfirm it doesn't.


These are minor suggestions and as Tom said really aren't that needed, but they could clear up a few odd questions like mine.

Respectfully,

Skipper