6/4 on a Bull centaur

PubBowler · Post by **PubBowler** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 7:14 pm

Joemanji wrote:
PubBowler wrote: Even Black Orcs have a 75% of a successful Dodge with a reroll.
How many re-rolls does he have? Because if he is going to take MA7 over a skill, he'll want to use it every turn. Or at least every other turn. Because Block costs 10K less and he sure as heck would get to use that (almost) every turn. Even if he doesn't need it after the roll, it still means he can throw a block with confidence. He can use Break Tackle most turns too, and it unlocks 50K of otherwise untapped movement. But there is no way he can dodge every turn on a 4+. Even if he had 8 re-rolls and never needed to use them for anything else, its still a losing strategy IMO. 75% is not good odds in BB over even a medium length timeline.

I agree that this is not as an effective choice in the short term.
I think most people do. (Certainly everyone who posted here who made a distinction between short and long did).

But I think you use hyperbole here, to imply that both Break Tackle or Block will be used the majority of turns while using the MA7 requires a dodge every turn.

Sometimes the block with the Break Tackle or +1MA player will be the best choice.
Sometimes the Block player will need to dodge.
Sometimes the extra MA will enable the bull to move around a TZ avoiding a dodge.

Going out of the way to use any attribute or skill every turn is a losing strategy.

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 7:41 pm

I think you should take Block second. Otherwise, he's 5 TDs (well, really 4 and a lucky break) away from improving, and he'll have a hell of a time getting them.

It's a very bad idea, IMO, to develop an AG2 player as a ball-handler when you have a choice. This is especially true when considering that you get more bang for your buck distributing TDs on rookie Hobgoblins than you ever will by beefing up one guy with all the SPP. I'd take BT as a third selection for sure, but any time your BC gets to #2, you need to think about Block (unless he already has BT and you roll doubles).

Jural · Post by **Jural** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 7:55 pm

My only problem with +MA is that the Bull is so mobile as it is... most turns he will move 7 or 8 squares with minimal turnovers for the team.

I have rarely felt I needed more speed on my bulls in many games with Chaos Dwarves. But when I have a young team without Block and Break Tackle, I have been frustrated.

+MA is by no means a bad choice first, just not the one I would make.

Glowworm · Post by **Glowworm** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 8:10 pm

The league is perpetual, that is to say single games in league format, casual style. The team has 5 R/R and already has 1 Block/Sidestep Bull. I intend to go with Block next skill (Unless I get a stat inc!) even on a Double.
Team in full:

Hobgob +1S / Block 29Spp
Hobgob Strong arm (dont ask!) sure hands / Block 38Spp
Hobgob (Rookie) 0Spp
Hobgob +1Ma 15Spp
Hobgob Block / kick 16Spp

C/D Block / tackle / TS 0Spp
C/D Block / tackle / TS 4Spp
C/D Block / tackle / TS / +1Ma 13Spp
C/D Block / tackle / TS / Guard 12Spp
C/D Block / tackle / TS 2Spp
C/D Block / tackle / TS / guard /stand firm / Claws 32Spp

Bull Sprint / sure feet / Thick skull / +1Ma 6Spp
Bull Sprint / sure feet / Thick skull /block / side step 21Spp

Mino Loner / frenzy / horns / MB / Thick skull / wild animal / WA / Juggernaut / Break Tackle / Claws

5 R/R
FF 10
C/L 2
A/C 2
apoth & 110K in bank

Team rating 1940

Before the comment come flooding in.... I made a mistake giving the Hobgob "Strong Arm" and not "Pass", However I do not "Change" rosters once i have played a game with the skill so it has to stay.
Also as i have stated before I have never given a player "Mighty Blow" IMHO it should be a Extraordinary skill so I never pick it, if a player (like the Mino) has it then i will use it, just dont pick it for players myself (its a personal preference, not an observation on the game)
Hope this helps.....

Joemanji · Post by **Joemanji** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 8:18 pm

PubBowler wrote:But I think you use hyperbole here, to imply that both Break Tackle or Block will be used the majority of turns while using the MA7 requires a dodge every turn.

Sometimes the block with the Break Tackle or +1MA player will be the best choice.
Sometimes the Block player will need to dodge.
Sometimes the extra MA will enable the bull to move around a TZ avoiding a dodge.

Going out of the way to use any attribute or skill every turn is a losing strategy.

Fair enough, different strokes etc.

But a basic ploy against CD teams with rookie Bulls is to tie them up in a Tz on any turn where they might be useful (like you would with a Saurus). Done right this means a team withy 2 bulls has 100K of skills and MA unused, giving you a massive advantage. Even with ST4 bulls are not the most reliable blockers on the CD team, so there is no real fear putting players against them. However, as soon as the Bulls have Block and Break Tackle, they become a completely differently player. Easily worth the 170K they cost. I guess I'm just firmly in the camp that thinks the player has one of the most definite career progression in the game. I'd pass up a double I would think on a rookie bull.

Btw, I am not saying you should use a skill every turn regardless. Not at all. Rather that some skills just turn out to be useful every turn, even if just in a passive sense.

Smeborg · Post by **Smeborg** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 8:33 pm

Why not take Wrestle instead of Block on the BCs?

Why?

Because Wrestle combines so well with Break Tackle when it comes to sacking a ball carrier in a cage.

The ultimate blitzing BC with Break Tackle, Wrestle, Tackle, Pro and a Team Re-roll has a 50% chance of sacking a ST3 player in a standard 4 man cage (without Guard). That's as good as it gets without agility skills or mutations.

And BCs don't mind being on the ground so much, as they can still move 6 squares from prone. With AV9 and Thick Skull, they are hard to foul effectively.

Just a suggestion. Hope it helps.

Cheers

Joemanji · Post by **Joemanji** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 8:38 pm

Wrestle has its merit. But it falls down when not blocking the ball carrier (ie. most of the time). A developed CD team will end up using their bulls to hold the line in valuable positions, and having a ST4 player on the ground can leave a huge gap. I like to get them Guard too at some point, which means keeping them on their feet.

Glowworm · Post by **Glowworm** » Sat Dec 06, 2008 8:47 am

Just to clarify, once this Bull gets Block I was hoping to keep him in the back field as a "safety" (I believe this is the correct term) However maybe Wrestle would be better followed by Tackle or Grab

Craigtw · Post by **Craigtw** » Sat Dec 06, 2008 4:49 pm

glowworm wrote:Just to clarify, once this Bull gets Block I was hoping to keep him in the back field as a "safety" (I believe this is the correct term) However maybe Wrestle would be better followed by Tackle or Grab

In this instance wrestle would probably be better as the ones who make it through are often blodgers. Tackle may be a good second choice, as this would totally negate the blodging. Grab would be of limited value as it may only be useful to negate Side Step. I would still consider Break Tackle as they may send a player to tie up the BC while the other receiver is free. Alternately, you may consider Frenzy to give you more than one crack at the intended receiver (also useful against blodgers).

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Sat Dec 06, 2008 4:57 pm

ST4/Wrestle is great on a safety, and so is MA7/Sprint/SFeet. Be warned, though: if you give him Wrestle and make him a safety, he'll need two MVPs or great casualty luck to have any hope of getting to 31 SPP. In practice, he'll need to get to 28 by accident (you can engineer one TD with him, no problem), or at least to 25.

If you give him Block, you can use his high MA as a way to square up in front of downfield defenders, forcing out-of-the-way dodges or leaps or other unpleasantness and saving your blitz action for another player (the Hobgob with Block and Kick can try this too, but ST4/AV9 is huge here). But if you're going to do that, you might consider Frenzy on a Dwarf to play ILB and help with takedowns. You could also just aim to blitz non-Block players by preference. Block also lets you put him on the corner, where his high speed is most valuable. ST4/Block and a Dwarf OLB with Guard means you don't need Stand Firm.

Who are your ILBs? You know, the two guys in the backfield, between the WZ markers, whose job is to shore up the line, keep guys off the safety and soak up the blitz on inside runs? CDs are spoiled with good choices at that spot, and you can do a lot of change-ups there.

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Sat Dec 06, 2008 5:51 pm

What are you getting next on the ST4/Block Hobgob? Fend? Tackle? What if you roll a double? Do you use him on the corner, or do you put him inside? If he gets a 10, take the AV and laugh all the way to the bank! I'd almost never take an AV increase on a player, but that's actually the best thing that could happen to this guy (except maybe a double for Dodge).

Do you use the Mino at ILB? If so, who is the other one? Do you go to the 3-5 vs. bash, with the Mino at Mike? How do you use the +MA players (Dwarf and Hob)? Have you thought about taking Wrestle on the +MA Hob and fielding him at... umm... never mind. I guess he's an offensive boy, huh? I'd still take something with him that would have me willing to use him as a reserve OLB/Safety.

I think you need one more Guard Dwarf (maybe the +MA guy) to use at outside LB, so you have one on each side. Then take the SS BC and the ST4 Hob on the corners, and your opponents will have to make a run at ST4/Block no matter what. This means they'll blitz the Hob every drive, or try to go inside, where you have a BC, a Mino a Dwarf and a Kicker. By putting the Dwarf on the same side as the Hob, then the Dwarf will get blitzed, which is much less painful. But if you're serious about playing keepout and don't see any Grab on the other guy's roster, then you might stick the Dwarf on the other side, allowing you to invert your pattern, putting the corner in front of the "OLB" who really becomes a nickel corner (great place for a MA7 Hobgoblin, or for SH boy), and moving the ILB one square outside and the safety one square inside. This makes a rookie dwarf much harder to get around.

So here's what I'm saying. Let's assume your Dwarf with +MA goes up and gets Frenzy, MB, Grab or Guard ('s all good here), and one other rookie Dwarf goes up and gets Guard. Block, block, block to make it happen, fielding your 2 and 4SPP guys on the line every drive until one of them gets there.

Code: Select all

DG = Dwarf w/Guard; DS = Dwarf w/SF, Guard; DX = Dwarf with Guard, Grab, Frenzy or MB, plus MA5.  I'm not differentiating the BCs and HGs because it should be obvious.

I: Conventional 3-4
-- -- -- --|-- -- CD DS CD -- --|-- -- -- --
-- -- DX --|-- MT -- -- -- CD --|-- DG -- --
-- BC -- --|HG -- -- -- -- -- BC|-- -- HG --

II: Inverted on left side (note shift in focus on line)
-- -- -- --|-- -- DS DG CD -- --|-- -- -- --
-- BC -- --|CD-- -- -- -- MT --|-- DX -- --
-- -- HG --|-- BC -- -- -- -- HG|-- -- HG --