Safe Throw and Interceptions: dice order

[dpwright]

Well, I surrender. Thanks for the discussion on it though!

Kept me sane during last few days of teaching when I am VERY bored.

[GalakStarscraper]

Galak, please excuse me, but it looks like you are trying to make mountains out of molehills.

No I'm not.

If you do it the way you just said you will have times where a player using Pass Block but does not get a chance to actually roll for Interception if that was his intention.

That's not acceptable from a game design standpoint ... so no its not a molehill.

Assume for looking at redoing it that Pass Block has be 100% effective still and then its NOT a molehill anymore. And just in case I need to say this ... saying its only slightly worse is not acceptable.

Galak

[Smeborg]

Galak -

Pass Block is not and never has been 100% effective, because the player with the Pass Block skill may fall over if he has to dodge or leap.

So I don't follow your logic on that point.

Further, I don't follow at a general level why the mechanics of the Pass Block skill should drive the whole passing module of the BB rules. It seems the tail is wagging the dog.

I'm beginning to understand now why the BBRC feel compelled to encourage passing in LRB 6 (changes to Diving Catch and Safe Throw). Maybe it's because the way interception works in the game acts as an unduly strong deterrent to passing. Just a suggestion.

All the best

[AK_Dave]

Everything you wrote was correct for how the rules work now. But that wasn't the point of the thread or dpwright's question.

My bad.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled discussion, already in progress.

[AK_Dave]

The point still stands that the ball is intercepted before leaving the hand under the current rules, which is...for wont of a better word...silly.

The current rules provide a GAME MECHANIC to administer a complicated choreography of action. Some of the die rolls take place in sequence that, literally, does not occur in reality. However, this is purely a game mechanic that exists for the sake of playability and to produce the outcome desired by the game designer.

Altering the game mechanic to apply the die rolls in a more common sense fashion does not simplify the activity because no fewer rolls are made, complicates the activity due to the potential for more rerolls, and changes the mathematical probability of various outcomes. It becomes, for example, more likely to fumble and less likely to intercept. Other questions arise.

While the game mechanic may be counter-intuitive, it is simple and functional.

There are a lot of game mechanics in d6-based games that are counter-intuitive. Yet they work.

I have never, for example, understood how the mechanic of a "cover save" in 40K makes the least lick of sense.

[AK_Dave]

Assume for looking at redoing it that Pass Block has be 100% effective still and then its NOT a molehill anymore.

I think we're defining "100% effective" as:
IF the PB player gets in position to intercept
THEN the PB player is eligible to roll to intercept

However, the PB player may not be in position to intercept. The skill allows the player to move into position to intercept, or to move into contact with either thrower or catcher. Fulfilling either of the latter options might require being outside of the intercept corridor.

But at least the PB player is guaranteed to be "involved on the play".

Alter the sequence of die rolls, and the only simplification that keeps PB useful would be to IGNORE the "actual square the ball lands in" for the purpose of making an intercept roll. Which is itself totally illogical.

For example:
Quick Pass, inaccurate-but-not-fumbled (possible with AG3 thrower), and three squares of scatter are directly perpendicular to the original throwing lane AND away from the PB player (who was only at the edge of the throwing lane. Now the ball is actually being thrown to a square 4-5 spaces away from the PB player. The simple mechanic would be "let anyone in the ORIGINAL corridor (ie, the PB player) roll to intercept. Which would lead to the illogical silliness of a guy on the thrower's right using a tractor beam to catch a ball thrown off in a totally different direction.

Thats a WTfrak moment if I ever saw one.

The existing mechanic ignores all of this. So maybe some of this is a little out of sequence. It produces a simple end product: a passing play.

Declare a pass.
Hey, I get to try to mess with you.
Okay, you can go through with your pass.
Lets move the ball from the thrower to some other square.
Happy day, the ball ends up in the right hands.
Turnover or no turnover.

[tchatter]

I'm still trying to figure out why my team of 11 players just stands there and waits their turn while the other team moves?

[GalakStarscraper]

Galak -

Pass Block is not and never has been 100% effective, because the player with the Pass Block skill may fall over if he has to dodge or leap.

I swear sometimes you are a Troll in sheep's clothes and make comments like this where you know exactly what I meant just because you enjoy being aggrevating.

At least AK_Dave had the ability to understand my point.

IF the PB player gets in position to intercept
THEN the PB player is eligible to roll to intercept

====

And Smeborg ... dang you are SOOOOOOOOOOO wrong on why Safe Throw and Diving Catch were improved ... it has total jack to do with interceptions. Its the fact that because of the 2 dice rolls involved Passing fails too much for most teams to risk it (even if you completely removed interceptions from the rules ... we'd still have made the changes to Safe Throw and Diving Catch).

====

Also as for Tail Wagging the Dog ... that would be true except for the fact here that we are NOT designing a game from scratch ... we are discussing a change to the rules. Assuming you are not deleting Pass Block from the rules than you HAVE to take it into considering. Otherwise ... just say:
Proposed Rule change: Move Pass roll in front of Interception roll and delete the Pass Block skill.

Fine if you do that ... but you all too conveniently sweep under the carpet seriously nerfing an already seldom taking skill (which would in fact be deleting it for all effective purposes). Funny thing is ... as a rule designer ... I've learned that if plow over little things to get to the big thing ... you don't always get a good big thing.

For me ... I'd rather have the simplicity of the rules and the Pass Block skill ... than more real rules that cause less interceptions and delete the Pass Block skill from the game.

The fun thing of course is that this is all so completely theory discussion without question because of my signature.

Galak

[Smeborg]

Galak - I'll re-state it as I put it:

- Proposed Rule Change: Move the Pass roll in front of the Interception roll and retain the Pass Block skill.

This does not involve any rules complications or contradictions. It's just a change in order. Yes, it means it's possible that a Pass Blocker does not get to roll for Interception, but only in circumstances where the Pass has caused or is likely to cause a turnover for the moving team (because of a Fumble or an Inaccurate Pass). Indeed, the Fumble or Inaccurate Pass might well have been caused by the Pass Blocker (or another Pass Blocker) putting a Tackle Zone on the Thrower. The Pass Blocker(s) still get(s) a "free" move during the opponent's team turn, making it a very useful skill. For example: If I have a low AG player with Pass Block and Disturbing Presence, my main purpose in using Pass Block to move next to the AG4 Thrower with Safe Throw is to improve the odds of a Fumble or Inaccurate Pass occurring (-2 to the Pass roll) rather than in order to Intercept the ball (1 in 12 chance or less).

Under the propose change, it would in practice be rare for both (a) the Pass Blocker to not get to roll for Interception and (b) the Passing team not to suffer a turnover. For this to happen, it would require (c) an Inaccurate Pass to scatter to a square where the line of the pass does not cut the Pass Blockers square and (d) for the ball to end up in the hands of a player from the moving team.

As I've already said, there is a valid argument that this proposed change invloves more rolling of dice than the current ruleset. But I consider this a marginal argument, because the amount of extra die rolling in the course of a normal game would be slight.

So that leaves the argument that the BBRC want to encourage more use of the Pass Block skill and more interceptions in the game. This is not an issue that can be argued rationally, it's a preference of the BBRC, and I accept it. But, at the same time, the BBRC want to encourage more use of Passing in LRB 6. I accept that too. But my experience as a coach is that the Interception rule order acts to discourage Passing in situations of a certain type. So I find the BBRC's stated positions in mild contradiction, but that's simply my personal experience as a coach - other coaches may not agree.

I'm also well aware that the discussion of this rules change is purely theoretical as the rules are currently locked down. But I made the contribution in response to other posts discussing the purely theoretical rule change. It's been discussed before, I doubt if it will go away. It's an old chestnut.

Best regards

[Smeborg]

It looks like there are 2 views of the Pass Block skill:

(i) as a means of getting interceptions and SPPs, and

(ii) as a means of getting turnovers.

I guess (i) is more likely to be held by coaches of high AG teams and in leagues, and (ii) by coaches of low AG teams and in tournaments.

Both views are equally valid (or invalid). The Pass Block rule is there - it's up to coaches to exploit the skill as best they can within the spirit of the game.

I make this post only as an attempt to explain the underlying difference between the 2 main viewpoints on this thread.

Hope this helps.

[GalakStarscraper]

Okay as long as we are staying theorical Smeborg .. just making sure.

But you are correct ... your change could work if you changed Pass Block to move after the target of the pass is declared but more the roll is made.

However as you agreed ... this would significantly weaken the Pass Block skill. Enough so that I just do not see anyone taking it. Which while I understand you see as okay ... just not something the BBRC agrees with (as I will note you did already say).

====

As for the contradiction in the BBRC's stance ... I just don't agree.

Out of all the coaches I've ever talked to ... interceptions are seen as a non-barrier to passing. The BBRC agrees with this ( I understand you do not).

But if you assume that the BBRC sees interceptions as a zero barrier to passing because they are so difficult then the following makes sense:

1) A desire to not make interceptions worse.

2) Believing that improving Safe Throw and Diving Catch can be changed to improve the amount of Passing.

====

Only if you believe interceptions are a barrier to passing does the above two items seem contradictory.

Galak

[Darkson]

Interceptions are already a rarity (1 in 6 statistically, but less in reality, as most coaches will not pass over possible interceptors), so any rule change which makes them less likely, such as moving the intercept attempt after the pass roll, regardless of wheter it makes sense from a real-life POV gets a HUGE thumbs-down from me.

Besides, it's just one "doesn't make sense" thing in a game full of "doesn't make sense things" - I don't see this as any worse than the others.

[PubBowler]

I'm still trying to figure out why my team of 11 players just stands there and waits their turn while the other team moves?

Politeness?

But, to give an on-topic response.

Agreed with Galak & Darkson regarding how I want Pass Block to be and don't find this game mechanic any worse than stopping rolling for scatter as soon as the ball leaves the sidelines.

[Grumbledook]

Okay as long as we are staying theorical Smeborg .. just making sure.

But you are correct ... your change could work if you changed Pass Block to move after the target of the pass is declared but more the roll is made.

huh, that is exactly when pass block moves are made currently and always have been surely? I'm confused, though for the record I like the int roll first, don't care if it makes sense.

Am I not right in thinking that years ago (and I mean years) that Jervis wanted more interceptions in the game and this mechanic had that added benefit?

[GalakStarscraper]

Am I not right in thinking that years ago (and I mean years) that Jervis wanted more interceptions in the game and this mechanic had that added benefit?

Correct.

Galak